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Monday, June 13th, 2011 08:23 pm
As promised, here is the chat transcript from the Fanlore training session/chat held on May 28. I tried to bold all the questions and answers, but much interesting discussion occurred that I didn't highlight.

Kylara Are these sort of meetings in chat held regularly?
via_ostiense hello!
Kylara Hello
hele once a month!
hele once a month there's a org-wide meeting
hele and since.. uhm, a while ago, Volunteers conducts a training session one hour beforehand
hele (this term? via, you must know. I'm crappy at dates)
via_ostiense this year :)
via_ostiense this term, yup
Kylara So it's open to regular members?
via_ostiense i think februrary was the first one
hele it's open to anyone!
Kylara Cool
Kylara Are they announced on the news posts?
via_ostiense trainings are open to everyone :D
hele It's mainly for org volunteers -- all committees post a short blurb telling what they've been doing and what they plan to do
hele and other people can ask
hele training are also open to anyone, and the subjects of training vary
hele they've previously been about internal tools, like Basecamp, no?
via_ostiense yup
hele I think this is the first time it's about something a non-volunteer would be interested in
May 28 4:00 AM
via_ostiense basecamp, campfire, and miscellaneous non-org tools for collaboration and planning meetings
via_ostiense yup
Jenn Calaelen has entered the room

hele news post have all the info -- I don't think the org-wide is communicated anywhere but volunteer-mailing lists and the like
Sk has entered the room
Jenn Calaelen hi
hele (i.e. news posts have all the info about what the committees have been up to)
hele hi, all!
Sk hi
hele you're doing this training, via?
aethel I am
via_ostiense aethel is!
via_ostiense i am here to learn how to wiki
hele ah, right!
via_ostiense because my wiki-fu is not good
aethel wiki-fu generally, or in relation to Fanlore?
via_ostiense generally--haven't tried to do anything on fanlore yet
Kylara Sorry, I'm still confused. Are there other chats that non-committee members participate in, like this one? Are those chat times announced someplace, like the news post? This is the first chat I've seen on the news post, which is why I ask.
Matty has entered the room
May 28 4:05 AM
Sk I will (rudely) chime in to say that I found fanlore wiki-fu more complicated/intimidating than several other wikis'-fu -- so thank you wiki-comm for setting up this chat.
hele org-wides are org meetings basically, but anyone can get into chat -- they're not announced because they're a tool to keep all people interested inside the org up-to-date as to what the other people in the org are doing. We communicate mostly the same info in the news posts
aethel volcom should get credit for setting it up
Kylara Ah, okay. Thanks, Hele
Sk thank you volcom! (who are volcom, btw? not sure I've found that listing/fanlore page?)
via_ostiense but thank you to wiki for leading it!
via_ostiense volunteers & recruiting
hele (if by non-committee members you mean other non-committee volunteers, then it depends on the volunteer group. If you mean non.volunteers, then not regularly)
Ira G. has entered the room
Sk yes obv, but who are on that com?
via_ostiense ohhh
via_ostiense sorry
via_ostiense um
hele otw's page on fanlore could stand more filling up :P
Julia B. has entered the room
Sk oh yes yes yes it *really* could
Sk also fanlore's page on fanlore
aethel Okay, so I have a few topics lined up, but do people have any specific questions or topics they want covered?
Julia B. *waves* haha, I guess we're all shy about self-bias there, no?
Julia B. (reads up)
Sk e.g. adding links to the various fanlore committee-lists pages from the Fanlore/Fanlore page for faster access. Etc. (etc.)
May 28 4:10 AM
Sk Sorry, I used to be shy online -- now I'm both curious and annoying(ly questioning) :)
hele I am curious about how to handle cites -- specifically, from boards that have are not online anymore
aethel aha!
Sk good one!
hele (run into that one. I suspect I need to edit the only pages I made once I know how :P)
aethel we have a policy on linking/posting screencaps of things that were public but then removed
Julia B. (I'm just exited thois chat exists nd got up at 6am on a Saturday :P -> not very awake)
Sk (related but maybe save for later: can fanlore give access to a shared webcite account, for those of us who'd like to use it for (backup) cites but prefer not to register ourselves?)
yue has entered the room
If a post is initially public, but later deleted or made private, then screencaps of that material are fine to include as long as nothing in the screencap otherwise violates policy. The key here is the expectation of privacy at the time the initial post was made; if the post was originally open, there was no such expectation, and a retroactive friends-lock/removal doesn't change that. Care should be taken, as always, to present as many points of view on the issue as possible. Thus, if the screencap no longer represents the current position of the person represented, please take care to note their changed stance as well.
aethel http://fanlore.org/wiki/Fanlore:Citation#Protected_or_limited_access_content
hele (hi yue!)
yue (hi Hele!)
Sk aethel, what happens if the screencap runs into privacy/(past) pseuds/potential outing issues?
aethel that's the exception to the exception
aethel don't link to stuff that outs people
May 28 4:15 AM
aethel but, screencaps can be doctored so that sensitive information doesn't show up
Sk is do not link preferable to (just imagining here) posting a screencap that has pseuds-of-concern blacked out|?
hele uhm, what's the expectation of privacy of, say, a fandom board that you need an account to access but doesn't limit account making?
Sk jinx :)
hele (say, around 4k or 5k memebers)
yue Or communities that are members-only but have membership open and unmoderated?
aethel hele, would this be a link to the board or to a post, or would it be a quotation from the post?
hele well, the issue is that boards do go offline
hele so, I've references to a board that has died
Cesy has entered the room
hele and I want to change them to cites of boards that are online
hele (just so that if they go dead I don't have to keep changing them)
aethel I think it should be okay to link/quote in the case of unmoderated membership
hele ok, thanks
aethel Other questions?
aethel (was that a helpful answer?)
Sk shared webcite acct: good idea, bad idea, what crazy was in *your* cornflakes?
yue Thanks
hele (it was!)
May 28 4:20 AM
aethel I'm not sure what webcite is/are?
aethel I think Morgan Dawn was posting to the dreamwidth community about it?
Sk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webcite
Sk it makes screencaps, I mean, archives webpages, specifically for citing
hele (Julia, can you get into gmail for a sec? -- I don't want to interrupt the training session but I've a question)
Julia B. (yep.) in action here: http://fanlore.org/wiki/Fanfiktion.de
Julia B. (sorry, scroll down to references)
Sk I think Franzeska (sp?) uses it sometimes?
aethel webcite sounds good, I've seen it used on Fanlore, but didn't know how it worked
aethel sk, are you asking if we should have a shared Fanlore account on webcite?
aethel account on webcite for Fanlore?
Sk I used to use it a long time ago, but login etc. lost to time, and I'm now much more leery of (re)registering for a lot of services. Thus, question about possible shared account for multiple fl editors.
Sk yes
aethel ah
aethel I can ask the committee, and/or you could get some Fanlore editors to do it with you
May 28 4:25 AM
Sk thanks on asking comm, and what would be the best place to ask other Fl editors (besides here/now)?
aethel the dreamwidth community
aethel http://fanlore.dreamwidth.org/
Sk Ah
aethel the comm can be used by regular editors, as well as for official committee communications
aethel also, a trick I discovered!
aethel Fanlore has an email function for emailing other users.
aethel If they have a user page with a user infobox template, there's an "email me" link you can click
Amy W. has entered the room
Julia B. speaking of webcite
aethel http://fanlore.org/wiki/User:Aethel
aethel yes, Julia?
Julia B. I have a -- sort of question (it's stupid I logged in with my RL name, btw, I can't link my fanlore editing name now *facepalms*)
Julia B. one thing that kind of -- uhm
Julia B. drives me batty about Fanlore is that tons of people don't cite, at all
Sk Okay, so I have Thoughts on Issues with the how to contact whom information (spread mostly in tiny underconnected bits over various pages) on Fanlore, but without getting into too much of the Thoughts, quick(er) practical question:
aethel this is true :)
May 28 4:30 AM
Julia B. so...it's a LOT of unsubstantiated stuff when I know that it would have been easy to cite (in know there are hard cases!) and no-one but the editor knows whwere to find this stuff
Sk Can the contact page be changed to include a table of "here are all the various ways of getting touch w various fl editors, committee members, other user, etc. and here's what each is most useful for and by what means you can expect a response?
Julia B. I also undersand citing is about the hardest thing about wiki-editing (maybe?)
Sk to help with contacting transparency/ease of access to the info?
Julia B. but...I would be interested in the committees stance on that, because citing soruces is not, as it stands, actually encouraged on Fanlore -- or rather, not citing them is not sanctioned
Zebra has entered the room
aethel (sk, we can definitely revisit the contact page, though I would feel weird about including individual editor names.)
Julia B. maybe add a "self-inclusion" section?
Julia B. (where editors can leave their names as tutors or so?)
Julia B. (and remove them themselves) (not sure if someone would use it, though)
hele (I got prompted to provide references for different phrases when I was editing pages, by other editors, and it was really helpful -- maybe there's some way to encourage this sort of thing.)
Amy W. Have you seen http://fanlore.org/wiki/Fanlore:Wiki_Committee?
Sk (sorry about threadsplitting -- and no no, not indiv names, just things like: dw comm, chat room (usually empty), gardeners email, wikicomm email, some editors have an email-me option on their userpages, etc.)
Amy W. That's the contact info for the wiki committee themselves.
aethel we don't include the actual emails of the wiki committee and gardener list on the site to cut down on spam.
aethel http://fanlore.org/wiki/Fanlore:Contact
Sk sorry, should have been more clear, "email contact form" rather than "email"
May 28 4:35 AM
yue On quoting: I've seen some info rejected/deleted by an editor on the base of lacking a source, then more info put in by that editor that didn't have a source. Would it be better to have unsourced plural views or none for lack of handy source?
aethel better to add unsourced info and indicate that you don't have a source for it
Kylara This is a little off course for the topic, but to help with the lack of citations, maybe citations can be one of Fanlore's monthly challenges? i.e. Find something unsubstantiated and substantiate it with an example/citation.
Sk Unfortunately that page does not mention the DW comm or the chatroom, or remind editors that they can (maybe) contact each other via various talk pages -- it'd be good to have the main Contact page list more than a tiny subset of contacting options?
Julia B. *nods* I don't have issues with stuff that doesn't have a clear source -- just, say that (like, "privte email"or whatever)
aethel sk, I can add updating the page to our to-do list
Amy W. I think we can fix that up, yes, Sk :)
Sk thank you A & A!
Julia B. (I don't want to be quotation hound either, but I personally think it'd benefit the wiki in the long run to encourage a culture of diligent citation)
aethel sources: the nature of Fanlore means that a lot of material will not have a citation. but you're right that we should cite when we can
Amy W. We do have some WIP linking guidelines, Julia, that probably need to be expanded a little more and de-academified. http://fanlore.org/wiki/Fanlore:Linking_Guidelines
May 28 4:40 AM
Kylara I've also found unsubstantiated claims frustrating on Fanlore, especially when it seems contradictory to what I know about a fandom. Even informal citations would be useful, to get an idea generally where something is happening or has happened. (Although I'm just as guilty about not properly citing/referencing/exampling/substantiating things myself.)
aethel and http://fanlore.org/wiki/Help:Footnotes
yue Mixing a bit the two issues of quoting and resource people: is there a way to privately contact someone to ask them to update a fanlore page for us, for privacy reasons? That is, an info on a page isn't accurate but pointing it out or fixing it is potentially incriminating and we'd like to go through a more neutral third party? (this is very probably making a bigger deal out of something that it is, but mostly, is there a way to give content for someone else to put in?)
Sk Encouraging, absolutely yes. But upping the threshold for adding information/making potential editors feel that if they cannot (currently) cite, their info may not feel "good enough" for fl, that I'd have worries about? (though I personally *really* like citations whenever possible)
Julia B. *nods at kylara* yes!
Julia B. (yep, I know the citation guidelines, but having the guidelines and encouraging their use is two different things, methinks)
aethel yue, you can always contact the wiki committee if there's a privacy/identity issue
Lis has entered the room
yue aethel: and that is the page that will be updated on the DW comm?
aethel I'm not sure I understand the question. you can contact the committee here: http://transformativeworks.org/contact/fanlore%20wiki
yue Nevermind, I found a link on the wiki contact page
Julia B. Sk: yes, I understand that, and it's a concern -- the dilemma between "all content is good content!" and "...but then again, NOT REALLY??? augh"
yue Thanks!
Julia B. so as I said, I don't want it to get discouraging, but ppl generally have the sources, and they just don't seem to understand it as an integral part of wiki editing to add them
May 28 4:45 AM
Sk yue, do you mean privacy about a person/person's fl page, or that (as has happened to me, recently) I saw a page that could use updating, but decided not to because even having my non-descriptive, non-obviously-linked-to-other-parts-of-fandom-activity fanlore username associated with edits to that page felt like it *might* be a potential cause for personal concern for me later. But I'd still love to see that page update; just don't want my fl username associated with doing it.
Julia B. and I'd like to make it more clear that it's, in fact, v. integral
aethel Julia: we'll add it to our to-do list.
aethel maybe a gently worded request to the dw comm
Kylara Sk, I understand. I want to keep Fanlore accessible to new users, and upping a threshold would only scare people away. But creating an emphasis on including examples/citations/references/links as great practice for editors and great use to the wiki can also be used to get more people involved.
Julia B. thank you :)
Julia B. also!
yue SK: the second.
Julia B. make it clear that adding cites on the talk page
Cesy yue: you can always create another username/pseud on Fanlore, if that would help?
Julia B. is a great way to contribute even if you don't want to edit!
Sk JuliaB -- exactly. How to encourage more additions, but *also* gently encourage higher-quality additions. (Also me saying this is kind of ridic since I'm such a fl n00b myself.)
Julia B. (I'm MUCH better about hunting up sources than baout writing pages, fwiw! different skills)
Julia B. (so maybe turn it into smth positive :D)
aethel (actually, we have a rule of one account per fan identity)
Sk Cesy, we can? I thought that was discouraged somewhere on a policy page? (If yes, \o/)
Cesy how do you define fan identity?
yue The rules said we shouldn't, and it seems petty to go around that just for a lone, verifiable fact edit.
May 28 4:50 AM
allison m. has entered the room
aethel fan identity as opposed to OTW identity or academic identity
Sk (psst, yue, let's pretend members of the wikicomm aren't listening: wanna create a shared factual-edits-to-a-few-pages-only fl account and both use that for the few edits we'd like to make and then promise not to use it again/for the rest of our fl editing?)
aethel (psst, you could get me to make the edit. aethel@gmail.com)
Julia B. ...or you could ask unrelated ppl to do your edit?
Julia B. (*volunteers*)
Julia B. ;)
yue I have several fan identities though, for several purposes across the years that I don't want to be mixed.
Sk even better! <3s aethel
aethel that's okay, too, as long as you don't use them to talk to each other on a talk page and create the illusion of editorial consensus.
yue Okay. ^^
aethel before this session ends, I wanted to point to a few resources...
yue Thanks for the volunteering, aethel and Julia!
Sk yes, thanks guys!
aethel all editors who have created a user page can be found here: http://fanlore.org/wiki/Category:Fanlore_Contributors
Zebra Chiming in super-late. I don't like webcite, because It only serves me a blank page with its header, probably one of "Everybody has Javascript, so we don't need to tell the people the page isn't working without it, beacuse everybody has Javascript and therefore the page works"
Julia B. :) (not v. helpful anyway, would have contacted you on fanlore w/my fan id later)
May 28 4:55 AM
aethel we have help pages here: http://fanlore.org/wiki/Help
Amy W. Oh, Zebra, thank you for reporting that. There are other ways of archiving sites -- screenshots (assuming you're not using a screenreader) are welcome.
Rrain P. has entered the room
aethel http://fanlore.org/wiki/Help:Tutorial
arrow has entered the room
aethel the best resource on fanlore for learning how to edit is the recent changes page: http://fanlore.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges
aethel so, um, any last-minute questions?
Kylara There's been a recent push to have a forum for Fanlore, as part of making Fanlore more accessible to new users from other areas. Is the wiki committee considering that?
Zebra I don't have a wiki account but could someone edit the cite 17 on the http://fanlore.org/wiki/Fanfiktion.de article to say "we deleted all the emails after the information campaign" instead of "we lost all the emails after an update", because that'S what the German says?
aethel (I think we need another session)
Cesy I can do that, Zebra
May 28 5:00 AM
Ira G. (another session sounds great)
yue (another session would be good. Sorry or clogging this one.)
aethel the forum will be under consideration as soon as the committee actually meets. I'm in favor of it.
Sk another session sounds great!
Zebra Thank you, Cesy
yue *sorry for
Sk View paste
Shoot, I just found my post-it with Question from a few days ago (that I should have asked 45 mins ago): dear experienced fl editors -- what are the top 3-5 fl pages you usually/always/frequently keep open in other tabs while editing a page? And what pages would you like to exist that you could keep open in a tab while editing a page?

Also, who was it upthread (Julia?) who suggested an "add a citation! or several!" challenge -- I'd second/vote for that as one of the monthly challenges...
Sk (um, yes, also sorry for taking up far more than my fair share of this session)
Kylara Thanks, aethel
Julia B. (yay forum!)
aethel omg, citation challenge would be great! I'll add it.
Julia B. (*cough* ahem.)
aethel :)
Nele N. has entered the room
allison m. aethel, let's definitely talk later about scheduling more sessions!
Julia B. kylara was! I love the cite challenge!
Julia B. I'll cite like amotherfucker yeaaahhh
Sk either forum or a question-tracking page that works like the bug-tracking page -- works with/like existing structure/tech of the site?
Amy W. Yes, the forum is obviously close to people's hearts. Forums aren't my favourite thing in the world and I have hesitations about people working on pages on the forum and keeping their material _on the forum_ but yes, being considered :)
Kylara *bows* :D
Sk *applauds*
aethel the question about tabs we keep open while editing. http://fanlore.org/wiki/Category:Infoboxes
Julia B. *nods* w/forums comes a different set of problems, yes, but I have faith in Fanlore users tbh :DD
Sk just those? (I'm starting to also keep open Image Policy, image help, citations help, draft char & pairing template pages, etc.)
May 28 5:05 AM
Julia B. templates, yeah... categories!
aethel it depends on what I'm working on.
Ira G. *polite cough* <3
Julia B. I always simply open one of my "non-stubby" articles to remember how I did things
Sk Faith! and citations! *g*
aethel I obsessively refresh the Recent Changes page
Sk you are not alone...
hele (you can probably keep going fanlore chat in fanlore's room?)
Julia B. (+1! ;D) (I track interesting user's contributions to find good stuff, too :P)
aethel oh, yeah
Julia B. oy! *shuts up* sorry Ira.
hele https://fanarchive.campfirenow.com/60af4
aethel sorry
Ira G. sorry folks, I don't want to cut anyone off!
Tuesday, June 14th, 2011 07:31 am (UTC)
Thanks for posting the transcript, it's nice reading through it again and refreshing on the details.
Tuesday, June 14th, 2011 05:13 pm (UTC)
something Sandy brought up at the Fanlore panel at Escapade - you can also cite yourself if you were a first hand witness/participant. This is our oral history and sometimes we cannot point to a website or a blog - particularly for history that took place before websites and blogs. So what I've done in a few cases is cite: "Source: Morgan Dawn's personal notes, accessed xxxxxx." or "Source: Morgan Dawn's personal recollections, accessed xxxx." And since Fanlore supports plural point of view, if someone else who was 'there' wants to add their thoughts/memories, they can do so and we'll have an even more well rounded page.