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Here is the transcript from the June 26 Fanlore training chat:
aethel hello!
Doro Hi! :)
Kylara Hello
aethel I advertised this one at the last minute, so I don't know how many people we'll get
aethel My clock reads 6 minutes to the hour, so there's still time...
Doro People will likely ask for a transcript again. I don't mind! (Just wanting to give my OK ^_^)
aethel yes, just so everyone knows, I will post the transcript of this chat!
Kylara Sounds good
aethel By the way, does anyone here have an OpenID account on Fanlore?
Kylara I don't. Is something going on with OpenID?
aethel We are planning to get rid of OpenID, as it has been causing problems. Some people haven't been able to log in for months
Kylara Ah
aethel there is a way to convert openID accounts, or at least provide passwords, so everybody with existint openID accounts should be okay
Kylara AO3 had problems with OpenID as well. It's too bad
aethel and of course I have an openID account there.
Kylara Well! I have no questions about Fanlore. Anyone want to start talking?
aethel yeah, does anyone else have a question or comment or topic you want me to discuss?
aethel Enigel left a comment about the citation policy, so we can talk about that some more
Doro Just wondering, was there a call for volunteers for tagging ALL the pages with the date categories? Because that's a lot of work.
aethel apart from the initial announcement post, no. I can email the gardeners list
aethel it is a lot of work. I'm going through the Archives category now, and I think I'm on G
Kylara Actually, I have a topic for discussion. How about separate pages and organizing fandoms? I mean, for instance, anime/manga usually span many different mediums but it's the same fandom, so I figure they should be on the same page. But I notice more often for western media that the page for the TV show will be separated from the page for the book it's based on, even if the fandom is in a shared space and there isn't much difference.
Kylara No real question, just what do you guys think about this topic?
Doro I just wanted to mention it because not so long ago someone said in a post that they don't see Fanlore editors as volunteers but I think this is something were volunteers would be a good thing. (I'm going through fanworks and I'm on F.)
aethel I would say, if it's the same fandom and there isn't enough book-specific or tv-specific stuff to discuss, put it all on one page.
Doro Depends on the fandom.
aethel examples?
Doro Also, the fandom page is usually only one of many pages in that fandom category.
Doro Examples for what?
aethel examples of multiple medium fandoms where it is or is not a good idea to combine
aethel like, should we have a separate LOTR film page?
Doro Vampire Diaries has a bookverse page and TV verse page. So does the Eagle.
Kylara Vampire Diaries was one of the things I was thinking of, because it was intentionally separated. If I remember the discussion correctly, it was separated because an editor thought the canons were different, even though the fandom shares the same space.
Doro @LOTR: If it's needed, it should have a separate page. However, you would need people editing that page in the first place. If they decide the movieverse is a different enough fandom than the early 20th century zine fandom, they could make a separate page.
Doro The canons are different. ;)
aethel the Vampire Diaries book page does have a lot of canon info. different canons isn't a good reason to separate unless there's a lot of fan discussion or activity that's dependent on those differences.
Doro (That was Re:Vampire Diaries)
aethel IMHO
Doro If editors in a fandom agree that separate pages are needed, that's the consensus. A wiki is based on consensus, so.
aethel true
Doro I would say that's not a burning question right now as there is no disagreement on the fandom talk page.
Kylara The canons are different, Doro, but Fanlore is about Fandom. I think this is an issue of Fanlore being organized around different canons or around fandom groups, and I think it should be the later.
Kylara I didn't realize it had to be a "burning" question to bring it up for discussion...
aethel sometimes it isn't clear that there's a fandom for each medium. A movie could be an adaptation of a book, but there's no real fandom for the book, just the movie.
aethel I would agree that Fanlore should be organized around fandom groups and not canons, but we also need to let the fandom groups represent themselves. I can't edit the Vampire Diaries pages because I don't know enough about the fandom
Doro As I've said, if there is disagreement about the way the Vampire Diaries page is structured, the Vampire Diaries talk page is the place for that discussion because only the people editing the pages can decide what the shape of the fandom is and if it's different enough for different pages. My impression was that you weren't concerned about Vampire Diaries as such and wanted to to talk about Anime/Manga pages instead?
Kylara Yes, of course fandoms should decide for themselves, as VD should do. I was asking for general ideas on the general topic. I'm not sure why you're saying I wasn't concerned about any pages, Doro, since it was a single example for a general question.
aethel I think the general consensus is "it depends on the fandom". I think it
aethel *'s a good question to keep in mind
aethel hard to elaborate without a specific case
aethel Julia, are you lurking, or do you have a Fanlore-related question/comment
aethel ?
aethel I guess Julia is lurking!
aethel Okay, so last month a comment was left here expressing some confusion over our citation policy and saying that if we have to cite everything, it a disincentive to edit. And that there's a danger of having edits removed if they are uncited. (paraphrase)
Doro Kylara: I don't understand your last sentence so I just repeat what I said with regard to the general topic: Depends on the fandom. :) The person editing the Pokémon pages for example made separate pages for Pokémon game fandom and Pokémon anime fandom because they thought it would make more sense that way.
Doro What is the question about cites?
aethel it was more of a comment. I had a question, though: is information getting deleted from the wiki if it doesn't have a citation? I hadn't noticed.
aethel I was a little concerned that people were saying that about Fanlore
Doro I haven't noticed that either. My impression is that if someone makes very specific claims about something without backing it up, it will be questioned on the talk page. But that's normal for a wiki...
aethel yeah. we also have the {{NeedsCitation}} template, but I don't think it is used much?
Kylara I've seen content removed for not being cited; the "pastiche" section of the Sherlock Holmes page comes to mind. But it ends up re-added. I think generally content that isn't cited is not being removed, no.
Doro I find the NeedsCitation template confusing because I never find the part that needs citation and the longer the page, the longer you need to search.
aethel that is true. better to place the citation needed template in the section where the problem is?
Kylara Agreed. An italicized "citation?" near the content that needs is more useful to me
aethel I think sometimes people add a footnote that says "needs citation", but if you don't check the footnote, you won't know it's uncited...
Kylara I've seen that too, and I don't like it because it's misleading...
aethel I would like an italicized [needs citation]. I know Wikipedia has a template to do just that, but I have no idea how. Maybe we can import it...
Doro I agree about the misleading footnotes. It makes it look like there *is* a citating when there really isn't.
Doro italicized [needs citation] sounds good.
Kylara That would be a good thing to import
aethel I will ask Amy. :) So far, we haven't had much luck with getting compatible templates from Wikipedia, though.
Doro I just checked the Sherlock Holmes page. The pastiche thing wasn't removed by a regular editor and it was immediately added back and a citation was added.
Kylara Yes
Kylara Aethel, as for compatibility, is the software different from Wikipedia or something?
aethel I don't know. it's just that every time we find something that looks useful on Wikipedia, it either won't work or won't do what we actually want it to do.
Doro The thing about citations is that the person adding information is the one who knows where the information comes from. If it's personal experience, that too can be added in a footnote and that's enough. There is nothing else needed and it helps to know where information comes from when you have information that doesn't add up (for example publication dates).
aethel the wiki software should be the same, though I think we're running an older version of the software.
Doro Is it because of the WordPress default skin?
Kylara (Aethel, for the new categories, is "Television" being replaced by "Live-action Television", or being added to it? Because "Television" is a sub-category to "Fandoms by Source Text" and I'm suddenly confused.)
aethel possibly. I could be misrepresenting the problem; Amy does all the back-end stuff
aethel (Kylara, we are replacing Television with Live-action Television. There are a lot of pages to retag if you want to help out :)
Kylara (Okay, thanks. Just making sure I wasn't messing up. :) )
aethel (the fandom category restructuring is taking longer than I was expecting. )
Kylara (Discussing or implementing?)
aethel (both!)
hele has entered the room
aethel hello, hele! Any last-minute Fanlore questions?
hele hi!
hele nope, I just came in to say hi and read up :D
hele but thanks!
aethel okay :)
aethel there's only a few minutes before the OTW meeting starts. Since we're in a different room, we can still hang out, but I will need to split my attention.
hele yeah, me too >_<
aethel any other thoughts on citations?
aethel check this out: http://fanlore.org/wiki/Category:Fandoms_by_Canon_Type
aethel (still unfinished)
Doro OK. Btw, I like the new challenge. :) There are not enough fanwork pages about the currently most active fandoms.
aethel I know!
hele it sounds a bit confusing to me, but you've reached that consensus with users, so it looks good anyway :P
aethel categories are always confusing, but we can add more instructions on the category pages.
aethel hello!
Doro Hi! :)
Kylara Hello
aethel I advertised this one at the last minute, so I don't know how many people we'll get
aethel My clock reads 6 minutes to the hour, so there's still time...
Doro People will likely ask for a transcript again. I don't mind! (Just wanting to give my OK ^_^)
aethel yes, just so everyone knows, I will post the transcript of this chat!
Kylara Sounds good
aethel By the way, does anyone here have an OpenID account on Fanlore?
Kylara I don't. Is something going on with OpenID?
aethel We are planning to get rid of OpenID, as it has been causing problems. Some people haven't been able to log in for months
Kylara Ah
aethel there is a way to convert openID accounts, or at least provide passwords, so everybody with existint openID accounts should be okay
Kylara AO3 had problems with OpenID as well. It's too bad
aethel and of course I have an openID account there.
Kylara Well! I have no questions about Fanlore. Anyone want to start talking?
aethel yeah, does anyone else have a question or comment or topic you want me to discuss?
aethel Enigel left a comment about the citation policy, so we can talk about that some more
Doro Just wondering, was there a call for volunteers for tagging ALL the pages with the date categories? Because that's a lot of work.
aethel apart from the initial announcement post, no. I can email the gardeners list
aethel it is a lot of work. I'm going through the Archives category now, and I think I'm on G
Kylara Actually, I have a topic for discussion. How about separate pages and organizing fandoms? I mean, for instance, anime/manga usually span many different mediums but it's the same fandom, so I figure they should be on the same page. But I notice more often for western media that the page for the TV show will be separated from the page for the book it's based on, even if the fandom is in a shared space and there isn't much difference.
Kylara No real question, just what do you guys think about this topic?
Doro I just wanted to mention it because not so long ago someone said in a post that they don't see Fanlore editors as volunteers but I think this is something were volunteers would be a good thing. (I'm going through fanworks and I'm on F.)
aethel I would say, if it's the same fandom and there isn't enough book-specific or tv-specific stuff to discuss, put it all on one page.
Doro Depends on the fandom.
aethel examples?
Doro Also, the fandom page is usually only one of many pages in that fandom category.
Doro Examples for what?
aethel examples of multiple medium fandoms where it is or is not a good idea to combine
aethel like, should we have a separate LOTR film page?
Doro Vampire Diaries has a bookverse page and TV verse page. So does the Eagle.
Kylara Vampire Diaries was one of the things I was thinking of, because it was intentionally separated. If I remember the discussion correctly, it was separated because an editor thought the canons were different, even though the fandom shares the same space.
Doro @LOTR: If it's needed, it should have a separate page. However, you would need people editing that page in the first place. If they decide the movieverse is a different enough fandom than the early 20th century zine fandom, they could make a separate page.
Doro The canons are different. ;)
aethel the Vampire Diaries book page does have a lot of canon info. different canons isn't a good reason to separate unless there's a lot of fan discussion or activity that's dependent on those differences.
Doro (That was Re:Vampire Diaries)
aethel IMHO
Doro If editors in a fandom agree that separate pages are needed, that's the consensus. A wiki is based on consensus, so.
aethel true
Doro I would say that's not a burning question right now as there is no disagreement on the fandom talk page.
Kylara The canons are different, Doro, but Fanlore is about Fandom. I think this is an issue of Fanlore being organized around different canons or around fandom groups, and I think it should be the later.
Kylara I didn't realize it had to be a "burning" question to bring it up for discussion...
aethel sometimes it isn't clear that there's a fandom for each medium. A movie could be an adaptation of a book, but there's no real fandom for the book, just the movie.
aethel I would agree that Fanlore should be organized around fandom groups and not canons, but we also need to let the fandom groups represent themselves. I can't edit the Vampire Diaries pages because I don't know enough about the fandom
Doro As I've said, if there is disagreement about the way the Vampire Diaries page is structured, the Vampire Diaries talk page is the place for that discussion because only the people editing the pages can decide what the shape of the fandom is and if it's different enough for different pages. My impression was that you weren't concerned about Vampire Diaries as such and wanted to to talk about Anime/Manga pages instead?
Kylara Yes, of course fandoms should decide for themselves, as VD should do. I was asking for general ideas on the general topic. I'm not sure why you're saying I wasn't concerned about any pages, Doro, since it was a single example for a general question.
aethel I think the general consensus is "it depends on the fandom". I think it
aethel *'s a good question to keep in mind
aethel hard to elaborate without a specific case
aethel Julia, are you lurking, or do you have a Fanlore-related question/comment
aethel ?
aethel I guess Julia is lurking!
aethel Okay, so last month a comment was left here expressing some confusion over our citation policy and saying that if we have to cite everything, it a disincentive to edit. And that there's a danger of having edits removed if they are uncited. (paraphrase)
Doro Kylara: I don't understand your last sentence so I just repeat what I said with regard to the general topic: Depends on the fandom. :) The person editing the Pokémon pages for example made separate pages for Pokémon game fandom and Pokémon anime fandom because they thought it would make more sense that way.
Doro What is the question about cites?
aethel it was more of a comment. I had a question, though: is information getting deleted from the wiki if it doesn't have a citation? I hadn't noticed.
aethel I was a little concerned that people were saying that about Fanlore
Doro I haven't noticed that either. My impression is that if someone makes very specific claims about something without backing it up, it will be questioned on the talk page. But that's normal for a wiki...
aethel yeah. we also have the {{NeedsCitation}} template, but I don't think it is used much?
Kylara I've seen content removed for not being cited; the "pastiche" section of the Sherlock Holmes page comes to mind. But it ends up re-added. I think generally content that isn't cited is not being removed, no.
Doro I find the NeedsCitation template confusing because I never find the part that needs citation and the longer the page, the longer you need to search.
aethel that is true. better to place the citation needed template in the section where the problem is?
Kylara Agreed. An italicized "citation?" near the content that needs is more useful to me
aethel I think sometimes people add a footnote that says "needs citation", but if you don't check the footnote, you won't know it's uncited...
Kylara I've seen that too, and I don't like it because it's misleading...
aethel I would like an italicized [needs citation]. I know Wikipedia has a template to do just that, but I have no idea how. Maybe we can import it...
Doro I agree about the misleading footnotes. It makes it look like there *is* a citating when there really isn't.
Doro italicized [needs citation] sounds good.
Kylara That would be a good thing to import
aethel I will ask Amy. :) So far, we haven't had much luck with getting compatible templates from Wikipedia, though.
Doro I just checked the Sherlock Holmes page. The pastiche thing wasn't removed by a regular editor and it was immediately added back and a citation was added.
Kylara Yes
Kylara Aethel, as for compatibility, is the software different from Wikipedia or something?
aethel I don't know. it's just that every time we find something that looks useful on Wikipedia, it either won't work or won't do what we actually want it to do.
Doro The thing about citations is that the person adding information is the one who knows where the information comes from. If it's personal experience, that too can be added in a footnote and that's enough. There is nothing else needed and it helps to know where information comes from when you have information that doesn't add up (for example publication dates).
aethel the wiki software should be the same, though I think we're running an older version of the software.
Doro Is it because of the WordPress default skin?
Kylara (Aethel, for the new categories, is "Television" being replaced by "Live-action Television", or being added to it? Because "Television" is a sub-category to "Fandoms by Source Text" and I'm suddenly confused.)
aethel possibly. I could be misrepresenting the problem; Amy does all the back-end stuff
aethel (Kylara, we are replacing Television with Live-action Television. There are a lot of pages to retag if you want to help out :)
Kylara (Okay, thanks. Just making sure I wasn't messing up. :) )
aethel (the fandom category restructuring is taking longer than I was expecting. )
Kylara (Discussing or implementing?)
aethel (both!)
hele has entered the room
aethel hello, hele! Any last-minute Fanlore questions?
hele hi!
hele nope, I just came in to say hi and read up :D
hele but thanks!
aethel okay :)
aethel there's only a few minutes before the OTW meeting starts. Since we're in a different room, we can still hang out, but I will need to split my attention.
hele yeah, me too >_<
aethel any other thoughts on citations?
aethel check this out: http://fanlore.org/wiki/Category:Fandoms_by_Canon_Type
aethel (still unfinished)
Doro OK. Btw, I like the new challenge. :) There are not enough fanwork pages about the currently most active fandoms.
aethel I know!
hele it sounds a bit confusing to me, but you've reached that consensus with users, so it looks good anyway :P
aethel categories are always confusing, but we can add more instructions on the category pages.