Podfic Entries

[paraka]

I've been trying to add more entries to Fanlore about podfic and have run into a bit of an issue. When I was creating new pages I was titling them "Title (podfic)" to help distinguish that this was an entry about the podfic not about the fic, which normally has the same title.

The problem though, is that this goes against current Fanlore policies to only add an honourific to an entry if there's a conflicting entry of the same name and there's a need to disambiguate. So the gardeners, rightly, were changing the names of the pages I created to remove the honourific.

And while I totally understand the reason for the policy, it still made me nervous because without the (podfic) in the title it just wasn't as clear that the entry was a podfic entry. Sure enough, one of the entries I made was later edited in a way to make it seem more like a fic entry (it's since been changed back and with other additions).

So I'd like to have a conversation about what we can do to make sure that podfic entries are welcomed on Fanlore and that future editors, trying to be helpful but not aware that the entry is a podfic entry, won't end up morphing the entries into fic entries. I've spoken to some individual podficcers about this as well as some of the Fanlore gardeners, and here's some of the suggestions we've come up with so far:

klb suggested that one way to deal with it is to include "podfic" in the title, but not as an honourific. So "Title podfic" would be how the pages are named. Most of the time, in fannish day-to-day conversations, people will often specify when they're talking about a podfic if the context of the situation doesn't already imply it. And when you look at places like AO3 or general fandom comms, many podficcers add that sort of distinction when they post their work. So adding "podfic" to the title does reflect podfic fandom today.

Sparcicle suggested that we add a note to the top of podfic pages saying "This page is about the podfic. For the story, see Title (story)."
This will give an immediate visual clue to those viewing the page that this is a page for the podfic and gives them a link to the fic page (or the opportunity to create a page for the fic if it doesn't already exist, as it won't in most cases).

There was some debate in the talk page where this was brought up that (story) is perhaps not the correct honourific and, while I'm throwing my 2 cents in, I'd like to say that I'd prefer to see the fic getting an honourific like (fanfic) instead, since the podfic is a story too (as are vids and comics and many other fanarts). In fact, what the fic and podfic share is the story, what we need to disambiguate is which medium the story is being told in.

aethel suggested adding a grey banner to the infobox to make it clearer that the template is a podfic template.

Personally, I think I like options 2 and 3 together best, but I thought I'd ask others how they feel before I start creating a bunch more pages. And please feel free to add more suggestions!

Comments

[hl]

I don't think one would default for that in all cases. I know Fanlore doesn't have a notability requirement, and of course if someone wanted to make those pages they would be free to do so, but there's no need for every fanwork to have its page. Assume for an instant a fic I wrote got a podfic, and that podfic was hugely novel in some way, and made podfic schools change style, and whatever, and some fanlore editor went in and made the page because they felt having the page was necessary for some reason (to register the change, or the discussions, or the meta, or simply so that fans who came afterwards could understand the passing references). Would anyone feel the need to make a page for my perfectly unknown, perfectly average fic? I suspect not, and I don't think that's a situation that needs to change. Or is Fanlore aiming to have a through registry of all fanworks ever being created?

[ratcreature]

But in that case you could still make just a podfic page, just like now fanfic that has no podfic, or boring, unremarkable podfic, just has a fanfic template. I'm not suggesting that all pages need multiple templates as default, just that the formatting guidelines should encourage that as a solution for the concern that podfics can easily become "subsumed" or an afterthought through the "fic is the default" thinking. In the case you mention, it is unlikely that a later editor would just switch templates and pretend the page is about the fic.

[hl]

Ah, if it's not the default we're in agreement, I think! In cases where it would fit, it certainly seems like the easiest solution. (I'm not sure that was the case, however -- as far as I can see the podfic in that particular case was way more 'notable' than the fic -- it may have just been a random error of assuming anything with no clarification referred to fanfic.)

[ratcreature]

I think the concern that the written fanfic is seen as "the root" in an hierarchical way, even if the derivative podfic is way more noticeable is real, and may happen in editing as many things may in collaborative wiki editing when not everybody has read over every guideline and convention. But I also think that the way to counter that should be having a gardener guideline how to fix the issue (for example with my two template idea, or by splitting the page and making two if both are long), not a notice on every page for this potential problem that enforces that podfic pages must remain separate, and prevents potential editors from adding some fanfic info to the podfic page without the need to create a whole new page.

[hl]

I'm neutral over how exactly the guideline will end up. Both two pages and one page with two sections sound good to me, and which sounds better depends on how notable are the two works (i.e. a non notable podfic may be OK as a byline or a smaller section in a notable fic's page, and the other way around) and I doubt we will get any bloating. If fanart pieces were notable (which I imagine some are, like all fanworks) I would also make their own pages or put them in shared ones, depending on how their notability is related to another work or not. My only concern is making guidelines that will mean editors would be more reluctant to take up pages and edit -- for example, by requiring them to add sections about works they've no interest in writing about, or by allowing confusing that will mean their work will be overlooked, like in this last case.

To be honest, clarifying fanfiction/podfic/fanart/whatever in the title as a rule doesn't sound so bad to me as a reader, but I'll leave it to the editors that are on those sections of fandom to decide what sounds better.

[anatsuno]

So you're suggesting that the way to "protect" podfic entries from, in essence, a form of well-meaning vandalism (to my eyes it is nothing more than concern-trolling editing) that turns a podfic entry into a fic entry despite the template and the categorization - as precisely happened just now -, is to make sure, with a policy, that every podfic entry is also a fic entry? Yeah, I'm going to have to say I find that offensive.

[klb]

It depends how it's done, I think. In theory, I would have been much more comfortable with, instead of the edit that was actually made, an edit where the TNH page was separated into subsections where it's like FANFIC: This was written by bexless and here's the link [and whatever other info the editor wanted to add], PODFIC: Okay here's the info about the podfic. Although then part of me wants to be like, "But does this mean the podfic info never gets to come first?" Not that it needs to, but I don't *love* the idea of my fanwork being buried down a page every time someone has interesting things to say about the fic that it uses as its script.

Though on the other hand, I do really love all the fics that I have put in the time to podfic, so it's not like it'd be the worst thing in the world if by searching for info on my podfic, someone learned some new info about the fic as well...

Honestly, the thing that concerns me most right now about them sharing a page is that a lot of people who say, anon or on twitter, that they feel like every time they are looking for fic info they get podfic info shoved in their face, would probably be much more annoyed at being at the page for the fic and seeing more than 50% of it containing podfic info, as if somehow the page creators had been making a statement that the fic isn't important. At least if there was a separate page for the podfic and the fanfic, we could assume that it's not stigmatized to talk about the podfic *on* the clearly marked podfic page, and won't have to worry about being interpreted in some negative way by people who read the page and feel like the podfic info is invading the page that should rightfully be mostly about the fic.

And then again, that also makes me think that maybe, though it's uncomfortable, it's actually better *to* integrate them rather than keep ourselves to the side. I don't know.

[ratcreature]

FWIW, even with both on the same page I think that depending on the slant of an article you could easily put or leave the podfic part first, and then have a section further down saying a little about the fic, like with articles about movie adaptations mentioning the novel.

Then later on, if the fic section grew too much, it could still be split in two pages. Just like now someone may make a page about the fic, mention the podfic in an afterthought first, and then once that section expands a podfic page grows out of the fic page.

The main problem I see with preemptively disambiguating the podfic is that the equivalent will most likely not be done for fic if that is created first (because there is plenty of fic that does not generate podfic after all), and I think that strengthens the impression of written fic as the default fanwork.

[klb]

*nod* Yeah, that makes sense, and, especially if the podfic info can sometimes come first when the podfic is the primary reason the page was created, I tend to lean towards this as the best solution, for the reasons you said. It keeps the two works connected and makes all the info easily accessible while quietly going against the notion that the fic is the default fanwork and always the first one that people would want to talk about or know about.

[ratcreature]

No. I'm against putting editing rule boxes (like aethel's suggestion) preemptively on every page, to anticipate editor problems from new wiki editors or wiki editors who have not read the guidelines or from trolls, rather than a gardener fixing the problem that arose from the edit once there really is a problem. For that part of my objection it is irrelevant whether the fix is to make have two pages, or to allow one page with two info boxes.

However, I don't think it should be discouraged for editors to put some fic information on an existing podfic page, any more than to put podfic info on an existing fic page. The guideline for gardeners meanwhile has to make sure that bias towards giving prominence to fic in fandom doesn't push the podfic content aside. And I think in cases where neither aspect is very long, or one is extensive, but little is said about the other (yet), that could be achieved by having two sections on the same page rather than two pages.

BTW that arrangement doesn't have to mean that the podfic part has to be the second part of the page, you can just as easily but a "the source fic" section below the part that talks about the podfic.