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Podfic Entries
I've been trying to add more entries to Fanlore about podfic and have run into a bit of an issue. When I was creating new pages I was titling them "Title (podfic)" to help distinguish that this was an entry about the podfic not about the fic, which normally has the same title.
The problem though, is that this goes against current Fanlore policies to only add an honourific to an entry if there's a conflicting entry of the same name and there's a need to disambiguate. So the gardeners, rightly, were changing the names of the pages I created to remove the honourific.
And while I totally understand the reason for the policy, it still made me nervous because without the (podfic) in the title it just wasn't as clear that the entry was a podfic entry. Sure enough, one of the entries I made was later edited in a way to make it seem more like a fic entry (it's since been changed back and with other additions).
So I'd like to have a conversation about what we can do to make sure that podfic entries are welcomed on Fanlore and that future editors, trying to be helpful but not aware that the entry is a podfic entry, won't end up morphing the entries into fic entries. I've spoken to some individual podficcers about this as well as some of the Fanlore gardeners, and here's some of the suggestions we've come up with so far:
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klb suggested that one way to deal with it is to include "podfic" in the title, but not as an honourific. So "Title podfic" would be how the pages are named. Most of the time, in fannish day-to-day conversations, people will often specify when they're talking about a podfic if the context of the situation doesn't already imply it. And when you look at places like AO3 or general fandom comms, many podficcers add that sort of distinction when they post their work. So adding "podfic" to the title does reflect podfic fandom today.
Sparcicle suggested that we add a note to the top of podfic pages saying "This page is about the podfic. For the story, see Title (story)."
This will give an immediate visual clue to those viewing the page that this is a page for the podfic and gives them a link to the fic page (or the opportunity to create a page for the fic if it doesn't already exist, as it won't in most cases).
There was some debate in the talk page where this was brought up that (story) is perhaps not the correct honourific and, while I'm throwing my 2 cents in, I'd like to say that I'd prefer to see the fic getting an honourific like (fanfic) instead, since the podfic is a story too (as are vids and comics and many other fanarts). In fact, what the fic and podfic share is the story, what we need to disambiguate is which medium the story is being told in.
aethel suggested adding a grey banner to the infobox to make it clearer that the template is a podfic template.
Personally, I think I like options 2 and 3 together best, but I thought I'd ask others how they feel before I start creating a bunch more pages. And please feel free to add more suggestions!
The problem though, is that this goes against current Fanlore policies to only add an honourific to an entry if there's a conflicting entry of the same name and there's a need to disambiguate. So the gardeners, rightly, were changing the names of the pages I created to remove the honourific.
And while I totally understand the reason for the policy, it still made me nervous because without the (podfic) in the title it just wasn't as clear that the entry was a podfic entry. Sure enough, one of the entries I made was later edited in a way to make it seem more like a fic entry (it's since been changed back and with other additions).
So I'd like to have a conversation about what we can do to make sure that podfic entries are welcomed on Fanlore and that future editors, trying to be helpful but not aware that the entry is a podfic entry, won't end up morphing the entries into fic entries. I've spoken to some individual podficcers about this as well as some of the Fanlore gardeners, and here's some of the suggestions we've come up with so far:
klb suggested that one way to deal with it is to include "podfic" in the title, but not as an honourific. So "Title podfic" would be how the pages are named. Most of the time, in fannish day-to-day conversations, people will often specify when they're talking about a podfic if the context of the situation doesn't already imply it. And when you look at places like AO3 or general fandom comms, many podficcers add that sort of distinction when they post their work. So adding "podfic" to the title does reflect podfic fandom today.Sparcicle suggested that we add a note to the top of podfic pages saying "This page is about the podfic. For the story, see Title (story)."
This will give an immediate visual clue to those viewing the page that this is a page for the podfic and gives them a link to the fic page (or the opportunity to create a page for the fic if it doesn't already exist, as it won't in most cases).
There was some debate in the talk page where this was brought up that (story) is perhaps not the correct honourific and, while I'm throwing my 2 cents in, I'd like to say that I'd prefer to see the fic getting an honourific like (fanfic) instead, since the podfic is a story too (as are vids and comics and many other fanarts). In fact, what the fic and podfic share is the story, what we need to disambiguate is which medium the story is being told in.
aethel suggested adding a grey banner to the infobox to make it clearer that the template is a podfic template. Personally, I think I like options 2 and 3 together best, but I thought I'd ask others how they feel before I start creating a bunch more pages. And please feel free to add more suggestions!
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That fic can overshadow anything else is a common problem, not a podfic specific one (there are no individual fanart pages at all as far as I can tell nor a category for fanart to find fanart related entries even though there are thousands of fanrt pieces archived in fanlore mostly as eyecandy in fic and zine articles with little said about them, it's all unlabelled and art itself is either on story pages, on zine pages, though admittedly art-centric publications like doujinshi or calendars have their categories, or on artist pages, regardless that frequently art inspires fic or that sometimes art can be hugely popular while the fic is not all that remarkable). IMO the solution should be editing guidelines, and gardener intervention if someone edits in a way that buries the podfic aspect, not warning boxes everywhere.
I mean, I totally sympathize with the point that it is important not to reinforce the impression that it is all about fic, and to create visibility for podfic, but I don't think an extra podfic header is the way to go.
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To use my fanvids as an example - I have broken out a few fanvids that have received commentary as stand-alone pages. Vids where I don't have a lot to say or haven't received a lot feedback are still sitting on my user page. But if someone were to make a page for any of my fanvids no matter how much or little commentary it had, I'd be thrilled.
Artists are more proprietary about their work and often don't like it when someone else makes a fanpage about their work or even adds it to the challenge it was designed for or includes it on the zine page where it was first published. Which shows that within fanworks, there is a wide diversity of how fans feel about others talking about their fanworks. Or to put it another way, in the context of a story, podfic or a vid we are usually *talking* about the work. When talking about fan art, you often show and tell both.
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However the current category structure makes it just hard to find articles related to fanart, even as activity. I mean, there is a "Visual Art" category but the vast majority of entries in that category are zines that have a lot of scanned zine artwork as far as I can tell. Which isn't wrongly categorized, but if you want to find the articles that talk about fanart as a practice, it's just hard to find anything.
Though in part that also is because there are just very few people who talk about art in the wiki it seems. Way back I started a few more art specific articles like Portrait (art), but except for a few zine art examples it's not grown (same for Still Life (art) and Landscape as well, but admittedly those are niches for fanart). And while art is mentioned on many trope pages, it is usually just put into the examples section, and nobody talks about the art.
The wingfic page is a good example of this marginalization: The article name and intro paragraph makes it sound as if the page was to talk only about fic, even though there is a ton of artwork on the page and it is a really popular art trope. And then at the end there is a gallery stuck for eyecandy.
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To be fair, many fans don't feel they *can* discuss art - one of the attractions of tumblr is you can just reblog and say: look!!!! pretty!!! The lack of knowledge of art forms, tropes and the inability to describe what it is the eye is seeing can be intimidating. Last month a few of us were asked to provide art commentary on fanzine art. Unlike digital art there was no website to point to, no artist page, and in many cases the zine stories were not even online. This led to us trying to comment on art without having any context and resulted in (sometimes) hilarious situations like:
Commentator A: amazing piece of art. the soft romantic glow, the hands touching and the IDIC brooch Spock is wearing all conveys a sense of warmth and intimacy.
(a few days later, another fan tracks down a copy of the zine, after much begging and pleading, peeks at the story and sheepishly edits the commentary:
Commentator B: The glow around the character is a sign the character has been possessed by an alien. The touching hands are the beginning of a telepathic rescue effort, an attempt to wrest the alien from the character's mind. The IDIC brooch is a hidden message to the trapped friend that Spock is there in an official Starfleet capacity and that, if the rescue attempt fails, his friend must be prepared to be destroyed. Still, some fans find this scene romantic due to the soft focus and intimate positions of the characters.
The original commentary did not say exactly all of this (aka edited to make the humorous point) , but there was a disconnect between what we thought we were seeing and what was happening. And while I think it was funny, I can think of many fans who might be offended by the fact that someone attempted to comment on the art without reading the story. The fact that the story is in a 25 year old, out of print zine, that only 5 fans in the world still own, wouldn't matter. So add this to the list of intimidation factors: what if I get it wrong?
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I mean, lets take a more common example of contemporary fanart, say a moderately popular Star Trek reboot fanart, the Star Trek Triad Triptych by Joanna Estep. It's been posted in multiple places so descriptions and opinions can be culled from multiple sources. Lets say someone wanted to make an article about it and wants to collect some talk, what could they find without much effort?
I recced it on
"I love this b/w triptych because of its epic, dramatic mood that fits Star Trek perfectly. The textures and backgrounds behind the characters resonate with them: Spock's third is quite angsty, referencing Vulcan's destruction in the Reboot 'verse, Kirk's is more hopeful, so that he seems looking up to the stars and their future, meanwhile McCoy's expression is calm and his background reminiscent of a planet's city skyline as if grounding them. You should check out the single posts of individual panels because they show larger versions (Vulcan, Terra and Oath) or download the large wallpaper-sized version of the complete triptych that is linked in the LJ post below to see the painting in more detail and appreciate it fully."
granted no deep analysis, but some opinion, much like many of the fanfic quotes.
Then go to where it's posted on LJ and grab a few more comments, like rubynye's
" Oh, this is SPECTACULAR. The three together really are even more than the sum of the already amazing parts! I love Bones' waiting expression, ready for whatever happens, but not seeking it, and I so love the way they both look to* Jim in the tryptich. Wow. Wow.
*: 'look to' isn't quite the right word, what with Bones's eyes being closed, but ... they definetely seem aware of him, drawn horizontally towards his vertical thrust. "
latenightarting's
"Oh HELL YES! The breakdown of lines into geometric shapes described the medical and scientific aspect of Dr. McCoy. The line above his head looks almost like a heart monitor beating. Also, love the TOS short sleeves of his uniform.
Together, they are magnificent! They work with each other to provide the support for each other and most importantly for their captain, who wouldn't be half the man he is without his phenomenal crew."
pouf's
"Absolutely gorgeous. God, I can't stop looking at it. The little details are my favourite, how individual elements originate here and end there. The lines behind McCoy remind me what Dali's line version of a city should be like. I love the imperfect symmetries and how they all fit together. It looks like they're in the midst of ten thousand different universes, staring up at the stars together, and it's beautiful. "
jantra's
"I wish I had words to say everything that I feel about these pieces. I found your Spock one ages ago and broke down in near tears at just how beautiful it was. It just fit him so beautifully.
And now this one of Bones... how utterly perfect. The geometric shapes of the city behind him, all done in what I believe are patterns of a heart monitor (though I could be wrong?). How calm and prepared he looks, centered.
And all put together...
How attached Bones seems, grounded, the calm one... Jim looking to the stars, BRIGHT and ready and bold and spirit as the sun, a hero's pose, wanting to go forward... and Spock staring to the other two, Jim in particular, level and almost... unsure and tense in the shoulders and fists, but willing to follow that adventure. The ethereal loss of Vulcan, the sky of a billion connected lives gone forever, lost to the stars."
That's three minutes of c&p to collect a couple of reactions who say something about the art, pretty much similar to quotes that now can be found on fanfic pages in fanlore.
Okay, but none of that is criticism, it's just mostly squee, but even controversial art discussion happens, like for an obvious example you'll always find critical comments on every nazi-uniform fetish art in XMFC along with the comments who like that kind of thing.
So how exactly is it any harder to find public comments on art than fic?
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With respect to non-zine art, I agree with you there are more opportunities for both access to the art as well as commentary. In fact, there is so much of it....that the selection prcoess alone could be intimidating.
I keep wondering if this is a chicken an egg situation: no online art is up there because there is no one adding art. But if there were more digital art, then there'd be more art.
what would be your suggestion to getting more online art on Fanlore?
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I personally think the stumbling block to that is fanlore's archiving policy, i.e. that the committee and the OTW have decided to make fanart uploading kind of the "fair use" rules consistency example case for fanworks, rather than going with the fannish convention wrt to archiving only with permission, so I could not in good conscience recommend fanlore to any artists, or recruit for such a site. The best advice is really not to attract its attentions. I mean, on top of the debacle of my interactions with the former wiki committee that is the reason why I am not participating in fanlore anymore. I disagree fundamentally with its policies, as I have argued here in the past at length in discussions.
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When I do an article on a website, I describe its contents; but I also try to discuss its design, i.e. layout and graphics. That's because I care a lot about the presentation of my own website; so it's something I notice about other sites, too.
Basically, the articles in Fanlore reflect the interests of the editors. We just don't seem to have (m)any art editors.
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(Anonymous) 2012-09-22 11:50 pm (UTC)(link)Regarding the template header, aethel's suggestion (http://fanlore.org/wiki/Template_talk:Podfic) was for all fanwork templates to get a header, not just podfic. So fics would have a "Fanfiction" header and zines would have a "Zine" header, etc. So podfic wouldn't be getting special treatment, headers would give clarification to all fanwork pages.
As for the "This page is about the podfic" note, I didn't intend to propose that it be required on all podfic pages. Rather, I see it an easy addition if an editor anticipates confusion. For example, I'd put it on "This Never Happened" because I'm familiar with the fic but not the podfic in question, and I suspect that others searching for "This Never Happened" may be looking for the fic too. Other podfics may not need the note. This isn't podfic-specific either; while I don't think there's any actual policy about them, there are similar notes on a variety of Fanlore pages when there may be confusion (for one example, see "Happy Endings" (http://fanlore.org/wiki/Happy_Endings)).
--sparc
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The "problem" of someone putting fic info onto the podfic page does not happen because someone is confused. It happens because they approach the two as belonging together. And on plenty of pages the fanfic and the podfic are covered on the same page, because editors there felt that the best approach.
I don't think a header in some podfic articles that says that this article is just for the podfic, is the best solution for a relatively complex issue, i.e. ensuring that podfic aspects don't simply vanish in fic dominated environment while also allowing and inviting edits for both podfic and fic. It tries to anticipate future editing in a wiki, before even knowing what additions someone may want to make. What if an editor came along who wanted to compare the impact a fic had on them to the podfic version of the same? or contrast the reception or something else that touches on both fic and podfic? Where would they put that in an article that preemptively tried to constrain future additions? An article that the initial editor, who was focused on the podfic only, envisioned to be about the podfic only may grow into an article about podfic and fic aspects without the second editor being a "concern troll" or shortchanging the podfic content.
The examples in the wiki where someone asked their additions to remain in specific forms caused IMO unnecessary editing trouble down the line. (I'm thinking of that long quote that used to be on the Slash page and is now on the Slash Controversies page, that everybody had to work around, because it is interesting, but can't be broken up or rephrased.)
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(Anonymous) 2012-09-23 01:17 am (UTC)(link)I do agree with you that in many cases it makes sense for information about a fic and the podfic(s) based on it to appear in the same article, especially if there's not a whole lot to say about one or the other. In cases where there is not enough info for a whole page about the fic, it'd be reasonable to add a short "This podfic was based on the story by [so-and-so] which [minimal information]" on a podfic page the same way it's reasonable to say "This story was made into a podfic by [so-and-so] which [minimal information]" on a page about the story. But the idea is that they're separate fanworks and should be treated at such, even though one is based on the other. (FWIW, I feel the same way about fanart/fic trailers/whatever based on fic.)
Hope that makes sense!
--sparc
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If someone has meaningful information to add and wants to restructure the page to turn it into a fic and podfic page they still can! Because, yeah, that's how PPOV works. But if I am willing to make a bunch of entries on podfic, which I feel deserve their own page, I'm not obligated to talk about the fic if I don't want to. That's also how PPOV works.
I'm not asking that Fanlore ban people ever adding fic information to podfic entries. I'm not even asking that podfic be treated like a special snowflake. I am pointing out how the current policies are discouraging content that I care about and how some fanworks don't fit the standard mould they set up and suggesting that they look into that and help me come up with a solution.
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I think in the end we'll agree to a bit of pruning and a bit of painting. I don't think we'll all agree that the stop sign needs to come down.