Podfic Entries

[paraka]

I've been trying to add more entries to Fanlore about podfic and have run into a bit of an issue. When I was creating new pages I was titling them "Title (podfic)" to help distinguish that this was an entry about the podfic not about the fic, which normally has the same title.

The problem though, is that this goes against current Fanlore policies to only add an honourific to an entry if there's a conflicting entry of the same name and there's a need to disambiguate. So the gardeners, rightly, were changing the names of the pages I created to remove the honourific.

And while I totally understand the reason for the policy, it still made me nervous because without the (podfic) in the title it just wasn't as clear that the entry was a podfic entry. Sure enough, one of the entries I made was later edited in a way to make it seem more like a fic entry (it's since been changed back and with other additions).

So I'd like to have a conversation about what we can do to make sure that podfic entries are welcomed on Fanlore and that future editors, trying to be helpful but not aware that the entry is a podfic entry, won't end up morphing the entries into fic entries. I've spoken to some individual podficcers about this as well as some of the Fanlore gardeners, and here's some of the suggestions we've come up with so far:

klb suggested that one way to deal with it is to include "podfic" in the title, but not as an honourific. So "Title podfic" would be how the pages are named. Most of the time, in fannish day-to-day conversations, people will often specify when they're talking about a podfic if the context of the situation doesn't already imply it. And when you look at places like AO3 or general fandom comms, many podficcers add that sort of distinction when they post their work. So adding "podfic" to the title does reflect podfic fandom today.

Sparcicle suggested that we add a note to the top of podfic pages saying "This page is about the podfic. For the story, see Title (story)."
This will give an immediate visual clue to those viewing the page that this is a page for the podfic and gives them a link to the fic page (or the opportunity to create a page for the fic if it doesn't already exist, as it won't in most cases).

There was some debate in the talk page where this was brought up that (story) is perhaps not the correct honourific and, while I'm throwing my 2 cents in, I'd like to say that I'd prefer to see the fic getting an honourific like (fanfic) instead, since the podfic is a story too (as are vids and comics and many other fanarts). In fact, what the fic and podfic share is the story, what we need to disambiguate is which medium the story is being told in.

aethel suggested adding a grey banner to the infobox to make it clearer that the template is a podfic template.

Personally, I think I like options 2 and 3 together best, but I thought I'd ask others how they feel before I start creating a bunch more pages. And please feel free to add more suggestions!

Comments

[cesy]

I agree with your reasons for "fanfic" rather than "story", and a note at the top of the page sounds good, along with podfic in the title where that makes sense or sounds natural.

[fleurrochard]

I totally agree that the honourific for a fic should not be "story", for exactly your reasons.
Adding a disambiguation line sounds like a good idea!

[ratcreature]

I don't edit anymore, but as a reader, is there any reason not to conveniently put both on the same page at first, in different sections, both with a template, to indicate both are equally welcome and important? Sure, the podfic work shouldn't become subsumed under the original fanfic, like a mere appendix, but it's not like they don't have anything to do with each other either, and you could always separate and disambiguate, when the page gets too long and there is a ton of extra info on either the fanfic or the podfic, so one would overwhelm the other. I mean, fanart that was inspired by fanfic is almost always put on the same page as the fanfic, not with extra pages for every piece of art.

[morgandawn]

I like options 2 and 3 as well. I'd prefer story (mainly because we're seeing different types of spellings for fanfiction, FanFiction, or fanfic), but either would work for me). If we go for fanfiction I'd suggest we use the full word fanfiction and not fabric.

edited to say - the honor-ific to be added to the podfic page if/when the second fan fiction page is created. In its absence I'd add the 'header' with a red link pointer to the placeholder page for the fanfic page (story or fan fiction -either way). Tweaking the template to automatically include a grey banner would be a simple visual fix.

[hl]

My first idea of why not this is that (taking into account I'm mostly a reader too, and when I edit is not podfic pages at all) the editor may not want to write a page about the ff. Not because the ff is bad or anything (or they hate it, or they want to claim the podfic has priority) but because there's something they want to say about the podfic and there's nothing they want to say about the fanfic. One could come up with a template minimum phrase which to use in both cases (idk, 'The fanfic was written by AUTHOR and posted first at ARCHIVE/LJACCOUNT/FORUM / The podfic was read by PODFICREADER and hosted/posted at PODFICARCHIVE/AO3/LJACCOUNT.), but it strikes me as unnecessary every time (though it could be the answer to some cases, of course).

[morgandawn]

I think there are two templates - one for fan fiction and one for podfic. they have their own category trees - just like vids and zines. I know that podfics stand at an interesting and unusual intersection in that they're intertwined (the fanfic and podfic), but the general consensus is that they're different enough to warrant two templates and seperate categories. There is precedence for this in the zine world where we document the audio cassette recordings from the zines.

That's not to say we cannot discuss why they're considered different, just to explain why we don't, under the current templates, lump them together on the same page.

[ratcreature]

I think the minimum info that is needed in a fic template, like the title, author, a link, maybe one sentence what it is about, would be in an article about the podfic too, after all for the podfic mentioning what inspired it is fairly central, and the plot usually is the same with an audio version. And if it looked really unbalanced, like, say, for some reason there was some huge kerfuffle about the podfic with a ton of opinions and an editor really wants to cover that and doesn't care about the fic, there could alway be put in a template for "this section needs expanding" and make it explicit that the article is weighed toward one.

I just think that unless there is a lot of ground to cover it is a bit of overkill to default to two pages for every fic/podfic combination, or even three or four if multiple podfic versions exist. Then, all fanworks being equal, another page for the mixtape inspired by it, another page for the fanart, another page for the other fanart, another page for the plushy, another page for the cosplay photo.... And that kind of scope actually wouldn't be uncommon for some moderately popular Big Bang novel.

[ratcreature]

So you can't put two templates on one page in different sections without breaking the page? I agree that they should be in both category trees, I just don't see why two pages are needed unless there is a lot of content so that splitting makes it more readable.

[frogspace.livejournal.com]

Actually, there are quite a lot fanlore pages with the fanfic and the podfic on the same page. Also, there are quite a lot zine pages with a popular netfic and a later published zine on the same page too. Not to say that they couldn't have separate pages but to say that we never put it on the same page isn't correct either.

[frogspace.livejournal.com]

You can put more than one template on a page without breaking anything, we just don't do it and stick to one template per page.

[hl]

I don't think one would default for that in all cases. I know Fanlore doesn't have a notability requirement, and of course if someone wanted to make those pages they would be free to do so, but there's no need for every fanwork to have its page. Assume for an instant a fic I wrote got a podfic, and that podfic was hugely novel in some way, and made podfic schools change style, and whatever, and some fanlore editor went in and made the page because they felt having the page was necessary for some reason (to register the change, or the discussions, or the meta, or simply so that fans who came afterwards could understand the passing references). Would anyone feel the need to make a page for my perfectly unknown, perfectly average fic? I suspect not, and I don't think that's a situation that needs to change. Or is Fanlore aiming to have a through registry of all fanworks ever being created?

[ratcreature]

But in that case you could still make just a podfic page, just like now fanfic that has no podfic, or boring, unremarkable podfic, just has a fanfic template. I'm not suggesting that all pages need multiple templates as default, just that the formatting guidelines should encourage that as a solution for the concern that podfics can easily become "subsumed" or an afterthought through the "fic is the default" thinking. In the case you mention, it is unlikely that a later editor would just switch templates and pretend the page is about the fic.

[morgandawn]

frogspace is correct - podfics and 'fic on tape' audio cassette recordings have been handled in a wide variety of ways on fanlore. The podfic templates are relatively new - I know when I was adding fan fiction pages last year I had to include the podfic on the fiction page. We tend to add templates as needed - ex. The vid template was added when someone said - "hey, let's make an entry for that." and someone said "great idea". Up until then vids were mainly discussed on convention or Vidder profile pages.

[ratcreature]

Why? To me it seems really forced to insist on separate pages for fic and podfic, and stress that a later editor absolutely has to put the fanfic info on its own page with notices, and can't just add it in a new section to the podfic page, when the combined wouldn't be so long as to be cumbersome. Having a second template would IMO be an easy way to give podfic (and maybe other fanworks a fic inspired) enough weight to not become an afterthought, but still make adding all aspects and incarnations of a story to one page overview possible.

[hl]

Ah, if it's not the default we're in agreement, I think! In cases where it would fit, it certainly seems like the easiest solution. (I'm not sure that was the case, however -- as far as I can see the podfic in that particular case was way more 'notable' than the fic -- it may have just been a random error of assuming anything with no clarification referred to fanfic.)

[ratcreature]

I think the concern that the written fanfic is seen as "the root" in an hierarchical way, even if the derivative podfic is way more noticeable is real, and may happen in editing as many things may in collaborative wiki editing when not everybody has read over every guideline and convention. But I also think that the way to counter that should be having a gardener guideline how to fix the issue (for example with my two template idea, or by splitting the page and making two if both are long), not a notice on every page for this potential problem that enforces that podfic pages must remain separate, and prevents potential editors from adding some fanfic info to the podfic page without the need to create a whole new page.

[tiyire]

For reference, some talk pages with discussions relevant to this topic:
Talk:This Never Happened
Talk:Trying to Communicate
Template talk:Podfic

I like aethel´s idea best: I think it´s clear enough, but still flexible. Option 2 would also make it clear, but implies a separate page for the fic, which may not always exist. 1 also seems easier: we´d only have to change the template once, but for option 2 editors would have to add a header each time. Editors could still use a header like this if they want to/think there should be a page for the fic, but I wouldn´t make it a general suggestion for every podfic page.

For disambiguation I prefer "xxx (fanfiction)".

[ratcreature]

Even having read all this, I still don't get why podfic as only kind of fanwork needs some kind of protection line/template just to prevent that someone may add some info about the fic on the podfic page for which no fic page exists.

That fic can overshadow anything else is a common problem, not a podfic specific one (there are no individual fanart pages at all as far as I can tell nor a category for fanart to find fanart related entries even though there are thousands of fanrt pieces archived in fanlore mostly as eyecandy in fic and zine articles with little said about them, it's all unlabelled and art itself is either on story pages, on zine pages, though admittedly art-centric publications like doujinshi or calendars have their categories, or on artist pages, regardless that frequently art inspires fic or that sometimes art can be hugely popular while the fic is not all that remarkable). IMO the solution should be editing guidelines, and gardener intervention if someone edits in a way that buries the podfic aspect, not warning boxes everywhere.

I mean, I totally sympathize with the point that it is important not to reinforce the impression that it is all about fic, and to create visibility for podfic, but I don't think an extra podfic header is the way to go.

[hl]

I'm neutral over how exactly the guideline will end up. Both two pages and one page with two sections sound good to me, and which sounds better depends on how notable are the two works (i.e. a non notable podfic may be OK as a byline or a smaller section in a notable fic's page, and the other way around) and I doubt we will get any bloating. If fanart pieces were notable (which I imagine some are, like all fanworks) I would also make their own pages or put them in shared ones, depending on how their notability is related to another work or not. My only concern is making guidelines that will mean editors would be more reluctant to take up pages and edit -- for example, by requiring them to add sections about works they've no interest in writing about, or by allowing confusing that will mean their work will be overlooked, like in this last case.

To be honest, clarifying fanfiction/podfic/fanart/whatever in the title as a rule doesn't sound so bad to me as a reader, but I'll leave it to the editors that are on those sections of fandom to decide what sounds better.

[msilverstar]

I like #3, putting (fanfic) or (fanfiction) in the title of those pages. They often have ambiguous titles, like "Convergence", and it's nice to be clearer up front. It's also good for search engine results, people can tell what they're going to see when they click.

[liviapenn]

Note: I am getting on a plane to go on vacation in less than 12 hours (eep) so please understand that I might not be able to give responses to this comment, but these are some thoughts that I had sent earlier in response to Paraka's last email to the gardeners list.



klb suggested that one way to deal with it is to include "podfic" in the title, but not as an honourific. So "Title podfic" would be how the pages are named. Most of the time, in fannish day-to-day conversations, people will often specify when they're talking about a podfic if the context of the situation doesn't already imply it. And when you look at places like AO3 or general fandom comms, many podficcers add that sort of distinction when they post their work. So adding "podfic" to the title does reflect podfic fandom today.

I really like this suggestion! And I'm sort of facepalming that we didn't think of it. I think as an actual gardener (but not a committee member)-- just personally speaking, I often fall into the trap of "but this is the rule so we must do it this way, and everything must be the same, in order to be organized and not confusing" but as aethel pointed out, fandom is a big place and we should ideally be responding with flexibility in order to reflect how people are actually doing things, even if it doesn't fit perfectly into some theoretical idea of what things *should* look like.

And also as a wiki contributor I tend to think of what will be best in the long term for much larger groups of future wiki participants-- so my priority is generally simpler procedures for creating pages, the same processes for every fanwork, etc., and then I sort of forget, "oh yeah, people will also just be USING the wiki, like, to look things up and find information, duh." And using "Title Of Story Podfic" would be best in that case as well, as Paraka also points out, because it seems to me that's how people would *search* for the podfic page, if they were looking for it-- they'd search for "Such And Such Podfic".

And then as klb points out, podfic is also special case compared to other currently existing types of fanworks, in that generally, disambiguation is usually only needed in the case of a very short generic title like "Alone" or "Masks", or if it's a very common fandom injoke/reference like (this is just a made up example) "Me and Thee" in Starsky & Hutch fandom, where that's the name of a zine and an archive and a mailing list and a couple of stories and also someone's pseud and so on, and those can usually be worked out by the "first come first served" rule and by creating disambiguation pages not automatically, but mostly only as needed.

But a podfic 95% of the time will have the same title as a text fic, so the page creation guidelines should probably reflect that podfic titling conventions are different than other types of fanwork titling conventions.

So, my general priority would still be that the shortest/simplest title & shortest/simplest page creation system is best, but I think in this case I've come around to the idea that the shortest/simplest system for podfic pages *should* include the info that the work is a podfic. It's less confusing and also it's less challenging for the casual wiki editor than creating disambiguation pages.

I'm not sure yet about whether it should be "Title of Story Podfic" or "Title of Story (podfic)." The second way looks neater, I think, but it might confuse the casual wiki editor into thinking that they would always need to put (vid) or (zine) other details in the title of a page, and also I worry about offending people if we say "No, that rule is just for podfic," "Well, why are there special rules just for podfic!"

These are really just minor concerns though, I guess I don't have a strong preference either way.



There was some debate in the talk page where this was brought up that (story) is perhaps not the correct honourific and, while I'm throwing my 2 cents in, I'd like to say that I'd prefer to see the fic getting an honourific like (fanfic) instead, since the podfic is a story too (as are vids and comics and many other fanarts). In fact, what the fic and podfic share is the story, what we need to disambiguate is which medium the story is being told in.

Right, different mediums are also stories, but a story in zine format is labeled "zine," in audio format "podfic" and then in text format, currently, "story."

But the problem is, there's not that much difference between "story" and "fanfic," I don't think-- in the sense that they are both umbrella terms and literally both mean more than just "text based internet fan fiction." I mean, a zine is fanfic, a podfic is fanfic, a fan comic is fanfic. If we changed to "fanfic" to indicate the internet text version of a story, wouldn't we equally be saying "these works aren't really fanfic?"

I mean, "story" is inexact, but I don't know if there is a more exact term that is actually, currently in active use in fandom, to mean just an internet-posted text-based story and not stories in other mediums.

The only one that I can think of that has actually been commonly used in fandom would be back in the day when people used "zinefic" and "netfic" to distinguish between those two media types, but I don't think we'd have much luck trying to get people to use "netfic" now.

And this is where we get into the issue that Fanlore is (ideally) descriptive, not prescriptive, meaning, in this case, that we would prioritize using the terms that are already *being* used, and not be like an anthropologist and say "We've decided to label this sort of thing 'textfic' even though nobody in fandom actually uses that term."

Anyway. I don't think I was around when "story" was chosen, but I always assumed that the thought process there was "how easy is this going to be for large groups of people in the long run, including lots of casual editors," and using "fanfic" instead of "story" opens up all those variations of spelling, as someone pointed out on one of the talk page discussions-- now you're not just having problems with non-standardized labeling like "TS fic" and "Sentinel fic" and "The Sentinel fic," -- now you're adding a whole new problem point where people are creating duplicate pages/making unsuccessful searches because there is the ambiguity of "fic," "fanfic," "fan fic," "fan fiction," "fanfiction," etc. So in that sense, "story" has an advantage just because it's harder to mess up.

[anatsuno]

So you're suggesting that the way to "protect" podfic entries from, in essence, a form of well-meaning vandalism (to my eyes it is nothing more than concern-trolling editing) that turns a podfic entry into a fic entry despite the template and the categorization - as precisely happened just now -, is to make sure, with a policy, that every podfic entry is also a fic entry? Yeah, I'm going to have to say I find that offensive.

[anatsuno]

The fact that there are no individual fanart page son Fanlore is a mind-blowing revelation to me - I don't even understand how, or why, or -- what? Seriously? It seems a gross oversight to me, but I guess fanartists and fanart fans didn't think it was necessary and didn't create them or asked for a category?

[klb]

It depends how it's done, I think. In theory, I would have been much more comfortable with, instead of the edit that was actually made, an edit where the TNH page was separated into subsections where it's like FANFIC: This was written by bexless and here's the link [and whatever other info the editor wanted to add], PODFIC: Okay here's the info about the podfic. Although then part of me wants to be like, "But does this mean the podfic info never gets to come first?" Not that it needs to, but I don't *love* the idea of my fanwork being buried down a page every time someone has interesting things to say about the fic that it uses as its script.

Though on the other hand, I do really love all the fics that I have put in the time to podfic, so it's not like it'd be the worst thing in the world if by searching for info on my podfic, someone learned some new info about the fic as well...

Honestly, the thing that concerns me most right now about them sharing a page is that a lot of people who say, anon or on twitter, that they feel like every time they are looking for fic info they get podfic info shoved in their face, would probably be much more annoyed at being at the page for the fic and seeing more than 50% of it containing podfic info, as if somehow the page creators had been making a statement that the fic isn't important. At least if there was a separate page for the podfic and the fanfic, we could assume that it's not stigmatized to talk about the podfic *on* the clearly marked podfic page, and won't have to worry about being interpreted in some negative way by people who read the page and feel like the podfic info is invading the page that should rightfully be mostly about the fic.

And then again, that also makes me think that maybe, though it's uncomfortable, it's actually better *to* integrate them rather than keep ourselves to the side. I don't know.

[morgandawn]

Very few fan artists are putting up their fan art as individual works. They are making galleries on their bio pages and usually if the fic is part of a challenge it will go there as well. Commentary on the fanart goes wherever the art is located. But to many fans, making page for your own fanwork can seem...presumptuous.

To use my fanvids as an example - I have broken out a few fanvids that have received commentary as stand-alone pages. Vids where I don't have a lot to say or haven't received a lot feedback are still sitting on my user page. But if someone were to make a page for any of my fanvids no matter how much or little commentary it had, I'd be thrilled.

Artists are more proprietary about their work and often don't like it when someone else makes a fanpage about their work or even adds it to the challenge it was designed for or includes it on the zine page where it was first published. Which shows that within fanworks, there is a wide diversity of how fans feel about others talking about their fanworks. Or to put it another way, in the context of a story, podfic or a vid we are usually *talking* about the work. When talking about fan art, you often show and tell both.