Policy Posted for Comment

[meri_oddities]

We've posted the Fandoms as Category policy change to the policies section of Fanlore. We'd like to open it up for comment. You can find it here.

We, the wiki committee, don't work in a vacuum and would like your input on this. If possible, We'd like to have the discussion here on Dreamwidth. It's easy to answer questions and respond to comments. If discussion becomes unwieldy, we can schedule a chat in the Fanlore chat room.

This is only the first of several policies we're working on and are planning to put out for comment in the next few months. So, let us know what you think.

Comments

[facetofcathy]

Before I can even approach this topic, I have a concern about the way discussions about official policy and general procedure happen with Fanlore.

This post is not linked anywhere on the wiki, the OTW blog or any other site where fans and Fanlore editors will see it. The only people who have been invited to this discussion are members or subscribers of this comm.

Many other policy and procedure conversations occur in obscurity on random Talk pages. As an example, a discussion about Real People pages occurred on the Billy Boyd Talk page, and was only accessible to people who happened to stumble upon it.

I don't believe either of these approaches to discussion accomplish anything beyond alienation and exclusion of many Fanlore enthusiasts, including those people who do not wish to use Dreamwidth in any way, and those people who do not have the time to monitor the hundreds of edits on the Recent Changes pages to find where the conversations are taking place.

Real consensus is never possible if the conversation is limited to a small group of insiders. The results of these discussions are not accessible to Fanlore users in general either now or in the future.

I strongly urge the Fanlore committee to consider finding a forum hosting option that allows all Fanlore enthusiasts to participate equally in discussions, under the pseud they use on the Wiki and without requiring membership or participation in a site like Dreamwidth.

Barring that, if the Fanlore committee is going to choose to make use of this comm a requirement for full participation in Fanlore, then they should clearly state that on the Wiki itself.

[meri_oddities]

Very good point. I've just put it into News on the front page of the wiki. Admittedly, I probably should have thought of that yesterday. But I can assure you that we don't want to limit participation in the conversation.

Part of the problem is that we don't have a very good means of getting information out. The OTW News only goes out once a month.

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, ten hours ago I said to facetofcathy that I'm trying to stay out of any future Fanlore discussions, because I'm under the impression that they're not going anywhere. And see, here I am. Because I cannot shut up and leave this uncommented:

But I can assure you that we don't want to limit participation in the conversation.

Maybe that is what you would like, but the way things are set up now is limiting to a lot of people. It's limiting to people who don't have a DW account to feel like they're on the sidelines, it's limiting to the big crowd of fandom that isn't using journaling services to begin with, it's limiting to the many contributors who don't even know that this comm exists.

Last December, I made a long-wided post on this comm about what I thought were Fanlore's problems and what my suggestions were. While this was posted within minutes by a comm admin, there is no "official" Fanlore response on this thread to this date. Instead, the discussion moved on to facetofcathy's journal. What do you think, how many Fanlore contributors saw that discussion? Ten? Twenty? And it was a really good, constructive discussion, too.

When this comm was set up, I threw in my two cents saying it is a really bad idea. My opinion on this hasn't changed. Set up a blog on Fanlore's server. Set up a forum. Whatever. But put everyone on the same page.

Michelle (http://michelle.fancrone.net), who will really try to shut up now

[meri_oddities]

Okay, firstly, I don't think you need to shut-up at all. I do think that we need to find a compromise on how to handle issues.

I do think the discussion here is going to produce results. They may not be what you want, but we're trying hard to move things forward. There are a lot of issues.

You're here now, why don't you comment on the policy?

And, I do keep an eye on the recent changes and I know that the people who have commented here are people whose names I know from that log. If there are other people, and you know who they are, send them this way.

there is no "official" Fanlore response on this thread to this date.

What kind of "official" response were you looking for? If someone from the committee comments that usually means we've read and understood what you're saying. We probably discussed it at our meetings.

However, December is a transition month. So, the new committee didn't actually take over until the end of January.

As for the broader issues of communication, the wiki itself does not led itself to discussions. I can look into the forum idea. But that will take time to set up. And we've got several policies coming out -- the image policy will be out for discussion mid-April. And it will be here. I'll ask that the announcement of it be put in the April OTW News and we'll try and announce far and wide.

[ratcreature]

FWIW, I'm not sure having this discussion in a different blog would fix anything. Any forum or venue we pick will feel a hurdle to someone. For every fan uncomfortable on journal platforms, there probably is some journal-centric fan who rarely ever ventures outside that format to discuss or interact.

I mean, I have been frustrated as well that there doesn't seem to be widespread enthusiasm about fanlore (and also flailing here over what to do about it). But there would not suddenly be a ton of eager participants who only avoided us here because they think DW sucks for discussion, yet they are still passionate about fanlore. Maybe a couple, but at the same time we'd loose a couple of DW users who have subscribed here and sometimes comment, but wouldn't care enough to sign up for yet another forum to follow updates and discussion there. I know I almost never bother to comment on the OTW blog because I find blogs less convenient than journals.

IMO, the problem with fanlore discussion is not whether it is here or elsewhere, or a journal or a forum, it is that almost too few care enough about fanlore to want to discuss it in the first place, because few people even use it for the "fun parts" (i.e. putting fandom stuff you love in the wiki to highlight your favorite character or genre or something), so there are bound to be even fewer people who trickle down to the meta discussions of article filing. (I know some people love information organization and to talk about that -- librarians come to mind *g*, so this discussion might have its own appeal, but I mean in general you are not into a project to discuss its policies, but get through discussing policies because you have to, to have a project.)

[meri_oddities]

You know, I think you're right. I think there are things we can do to announce the discussion better, but where we have it isn't going to be idea for all people.

And you're right about the larger issue, too. I hope that we, the committee, can figure out how to return at least some of the enthusiasm for Fanlore.

[facetofcathy]

That post on my journal got linked by metafandom, as did one post I made here on the riveting subject of how to spell something. That gets the attention of metafandom watchers on Livejournal, Dreamwidth and InsaneJournal, and those posts had a lot of traffic.

Otherwise, the discussion would have been the usual handful of people, or in the case of my journal, fewer people than that. The compilation of suggestions from my post was linked to the committee I believe, but not the Fanlore editors in general.

[facetofcathy]

I get that you have limited options for communication and discussion, and I'm pleased that you linked this post in News on the wiki.

However, I meant this: Barring that, if the Fanlore committee is going to choose to make use of this comm a requirement for full participation in Fanlore, then they should clearly state that on the Wiki itself. rather more generally than just this post. If this comm is the only good way of discussing editing policy and procedure, if it is the only way right now even, then say so openly and transparently so wiki users know how to find it if they're not DW people, and wiki users know to bring issues here so they don't get lost.

Has someone with the ability to make feeds on LJ made a feed of this comm?

[meri_oddities]

Has someone with the ability to make feeds on LJ made a feed of this comm?

I'll see. I'm assuming I should be able to create a feed.

Also, we'll send out a note to the OTW blog that the discussions are happening on DW, as well as announcing (which I just found out we could do) new discussions.

[facetofcathy]

Cool, I hope it draws in more people.

[meri_oddities]

I do too.

And I just tried to add the feed to LJ and I must be doing something wrong since it WILL NOT let me do it. I keep ending up back and the welcome page. *sigh*

[facetofcathy]

All I know about it is that you have to have a paid account there to make feeds. A support request might get looked at, not as fast as here at DW, but there are some cool people in support there.

[meri_oddities]

I have a permanent account on LJ. I never had any problems before, either. I'll talk to support.

Thanks.

[meri_oddities]

Heh. Apparently, it's broken for everyone.

[arduinna]

The feed already exists, here:

http://syndicated.livejournal.com/fanlore_dw/

It was created at the same time as this comm.

[meri_oddities]

Thanks again!