Let me introduce you to my nemisis, Christian Kane.

[facetofcathy]

ETA:  I made the page.  I set it to be in People -- Industry as well as Fandoms by Source Text -- Real People.  Which suits the dual nature of someone like this, but I'm wondering how often we will make pages for people who are not RPF characters.  My concern now is that the page reflects my very firm separation of canon and character with RPF.  Not everyone rolls that way.

I am trying to expand the linked RPF pages, CWRPS and J2 and I've run into an issue I don't quite know how to handle, and I don't think this has exactly come up before.

RPF is not a nice, clean linear thing like Media Fandom.  It is a big tangled mess of interconnectedness, and the biggest problem I'm having is Christian Kane.  Specifically what to call the fandom page for Christian Kane/Steve Carlson fic.  There are no other pages right now where the pairing is the fandom other than J2, and it's got that handy cute name.  So should the page get named as if it's a pairing page, but categorized like a fandom?  Will that slash in the title cause technical problems? 

Why not just make it a pairing section or subpage of CWRPS you might ask?  Well, because I believe, much more than J2 even, that it is definitely a separate fandom off on it's own.  There are separate Kane and Chris/Steve comms on LJ and fic is only crossposted to J2 or CWRPF comms if a J is in the story.  If this were to be considered a subpage of CWRPS, then J2 should absolutely be one too.  I don't like at all the idea of a fandom being buried inside another one just because it's small.

Why not just make the page Christian Kane and talk about all his RPF adventures there?  Well I thought of that, but as the conversation on the Billy Boyd page has just trailed off, there is no real consensus on how to handle people pages.  Could I do that and categorize the page as a People page and a Fandom by source text--Real People page both?

Explanation for people who have no idea who any of these people are:  Kane played a fairly small part on Angel, but definitely showed up in Angel RPF, often paired with David Boreanaz.  (There is a very brief Jossverse RPF page that doesn't have much detail, so anyone who can flesh that out is welcome and encouraged to have at it.) 

Mr. Kane is also a friend of Jensen Ackles which naturally drew him into the vortex that is J2/CWRPF fic.  I've got brief discussion of his roles there on the CWRPS page.

Mr. Kane used to have a musical partner in Steve Carlson, and Chris/Steve is a common secondary pairing in CWRPF that also exists as it's own fandom and stories are mostly based around their canon musical career. 

Just to make things more complicated, Kane is of course on Leverage, and while the Leverage newsletter lists RPF fic, I can count on one hand the number of stories that have anything at all to do with other Leverage people in a significant way.  (The Leverage RPF comm on LJ has 9 entries.)

Congratulations to all who got through that--now, any suggestions?

Comments

[ratcreature]

Actually there are other fandoms where the name of the fandom is the pairing, namely the actorfandom Kiefer/Lou

(Also Hewligan in a pairing smoosh way.)

[facetofcathy]

I didn't even think to look outside RPF! So do you think just Christian Kane/Steve Carlson is a good way to go?

[ratcreature]

I think it depends on what the fandom calls itself. If the most common label is the full pairing name I'd go with that, if most were to call it Kane/Carlson, I'd go with that. But I don't read RPF so I don't have an opinion on that.

[ignaz]

I would consider "Rymon" (Ryan/Simon) to be a fandom of its own, apart from the rest of the American Idol set.

[ratcreature]

I have no idea who these people are, but I just looked and that one doesn't have a page yet either, so it's not a precedent as example. I just meant to point out that there are already are such pages.

[ignaz]

Okay!

[meri_oddities]

Yeah, what ratcreature said. Also, I think that given that Kane has a lot of aspects to his fandom: Leverage, Angel, J2, and the music, I'd say he warrants having his own page.

This is my opinion as me, a fan of Christian Kane, not having anything to do with the committee.

[facetofcathy]

So do you think a Christian Kane page to talk about him in all his roving ways, and then a page for the Christian Kane/Steve Carlson fandom? They would likely both be short, but short doesn't mean incomplete?

[meri_oddities]

Since we're going to be going away from sub-pages, I'd say, yes, a Chris/Steve page, which as you said, will be short, but they seem to show up as secondary pairing in almost every other J2 story where Chris shows up.

[facetofcathy]

I think I'll draw something up then, so it's more than just a stub template and a title.

[meri_oddities]

If I can get my internet access to stabilize, I'll see if I can't find something to add to the page.

Also, I just sent you an email.

[cesy]

What happens to Adam Lambert? He's no longer just American Idol RPF.

[brownbetty]

This is being discussed w/ re: the AO3 tagging, too, since a lot of RPF fandoms tend to be extremely mutable as the people take on new projects. I think RPF calls for a special kind of flexibility, but I'm not sure what the answer is.

[facetofcathy]

Pretty much everything happens to Adam Lambert right? [rimshot]

This is a good point, if we're not careful Fanlore could end up with articles that are only valid for the time they were written in, so maybe Adam Lambert needs a People page or a Character page to discuss all his adventures beyond AI8. I'm leaning towards making a character page for Kane and a page for the Kane/Carlson pairing/fandom.

[arduinna]

FWIW, this sounds like probably the best format to go with in general for RPF: specific pages for the people involved, pairing pages for the pairings involved, and umbrella pages where applicable for the various groupings that include the various pairings/people, so the same person could be listed (and linked to) from several different pairings and umbrella pages as they shift around.

[ignaz]

American Idol diaspora? I'm starting to think that, being as the "universe" in which RPF exists is, in fact, the actual universe, maybe all RPF entities need to have their own individual pages.

[arduinna]

regarding the ETA:

oh, perfect choice for categories, I think.

... I'm wondering how often we will make pages for people who are not RPF characters.

RPF will probably be the bulk of it, but there are a lot of industry folks like Joss, JMS, Doris Egan, Kripke, Wil Wheaton - people who interact with fans and where influences go back and forth, for good or ill (L** G*lb*rg, I'm looking at you). Plus celebrities who have fannish activities around them other than RPF (e.g., in TS fandom, Richard Burgi inspired a fairly active fan club, and Garret Maggart inspires a big charitable fannish fundraiser every year, but there's little to no RPF about either of them).

My concern now is that the page reflects my very firm separation of canon and character with RPF. Not everyone rolls that way.

FWIW, I think the way you split them is totally in line with Fanlore's focus on fannish activities around a source rather than the canon itself. The same focus should hold true for people; people can look up details about them on IMDB, wikipedia, celebrity sites, etc. Fanlore should be where they go to find out how the fans react.

[facetofcathy]

L** G*lb*rg: Can we make the page and spell it this way?

Yes, true there are people who interact with fandoms in ways they control, rather than in ways we do. I pity the fool who chooses to make the Misha Collins page.

my very firm separation of canon and character with RPF is really about how I see RPF. Some folks get a little tetchy if you keep calling your RPF people characters. They truly see no distinction between the person and the character, and I'm not just talking about tinhats here.

[arduinna]

L** G*lb*rg: Can we make the page and spell it this way?

Hee! Too late, alas. Although I sort of like the fact that he can find the page, and be faced with the fact that yes, fans are in fact telling each other how to avoid feeding his ego. Heh.

is really about how I see RPF

Ah, I see! Well, that's what PPOV is all about, in the end; if someone disagrees, they can expand the article to reflect the different usages. :)