On Fanlore and Squee

[stultiloquentia]

Here's the thing: I want to play with Fanlore. Specifically, I want to run around adding links to more rec and master lists than anybody could possibly want, and citations of specific stories that I think are good illustrations of trope x, and author blurbs! "Author X is influential in this corner of fandom, and here's what she's known for, and here's her website."

But I'm embarrassed!

I'm not afraid of being biased, because that's hopeless; of course I'm going to be biased; I'm a FANGIRL. But I'm afraid of looking like I'm just sucking up, scurrying around kissing the velvet slippers of my favourite BNFs. I already maintain a recs site in which I fawn with perfect complacence, so it's a dumb hang-up, really.

But I think it's Fanlore's big problem right now: people are afraid to add stuff, because they might do it wrong, and accidentally let loose a squee or something. Oh noes.

I have a proposal.

How about we declare it Shameless Fangirl Week at Fanlore (I am open to catchier titles), and go out and persuade everybody to pick one fan -- reccer, mod, maker of good things -- who helped shape their own fannish experience, and give them a page. Doesn't have to be comprehensive. Needn't even contain adjectives, if you still fear being flogged by a ghostly Salmon of Objectivity. Just needs to be a start.

Fanlore can still get down with its judicious overviews of Major Trends and Prominent Figures. But can we make it a crazy, Willy Wonka-esque Clearinghouse of Goodies, too?

Comments

[ratcreature]

You want to post masterlists and recs in the wiki itself? Isn't that the kind of thing that's already posted elsewhere and you then link it in the wiki? I mean, entries for story tropes now already link to masterlists.

ETA: What I mean is that I can see how adding references to more masterlists that fit for tropes makes sense, but not that the wiki would be a place to host masterlists. I maintain a couple of thematic lists, but I wouldn't repost those in the wiki directly or anything.

[stultiloquentia]

No, no! I want links to masterlists. Will edit to clarify.

[ignaz]

I think this is a super cute idea. :D

[mackiedockie]

Er, this may sound like I don't know the site well, but...how about a link to the particular Fanlore entry gate you are talking about, for those of us who aren't dialed in to Fanlore on a regular basis?

[stultiloquentia]

Erm, I'm not sure what you mean by "entry gate." Do you have an account over there? Here's where you can set one up and here's the help page for all your how-to needs. Then just jump in anywhere. Hit the main page for your fandom of choice, and see what's missing!

[mackiedockie]

Thank you, the Portal was what I was after.

[lynnenne]

My issue with Fanlore is a bit more personal. Fandom has set itself up as a "safe space," but wikis are by definition public. They can be read, and edited, by anyone - from academics looking to study fannish history, to lawyers looking to file copyright infringement complaints. I don't post a lot of personal details about myself in my LJ, but there are people who know my full name, what city I live in, what I do for a living, which company I work for, etc. I don't want all that crap turning up on Fanlore, and I'm sure there are other fans who don't want that, either.

Very few fans I know would be shitty enough to post those kind of details (I know *you* wouldn't) but there's always one, you know? Someone who decides to edit the post with stuff that I'd prefer remain private, just to cause trouble. I'd be reluctant to turn my history over to fandom-at-large to chronicle, because non-Buffyverse fans don't know or care about me. They have no vested interest in protecting my privacy, and academics, historians and lawyers have even less. So I remain wary of the whole endeavour.

[stultiloquentia]

Fanlore's identity protection policy is designed to make sure your private info stays off the site. Nothing that you haven't posted publicly would ever go there.

What I'd love to do (for eg.) is create a Spike/Angel page where fans could find (and yep, edit) a list of archives, rec sites and influential stories without having to wade through (horrors) Google, especially now that many of the people who were writing the creme de la creme back in the day have dispersed and moved on to new shinies. You wouldn't want your stuff to be linked there at all, as a resource for newbies?

from academics looking to study fannish history, to lawyers looking to file copyright infringement complaints.
Ahh, I don' like seeing those two groups placed next to each other! Acafen are awesome! I identify as one, thanks. And lawyers sniffing for cases? Seriously? They've got more winnable fish to fry. Fan fiction made it into freakin' Merriam-Webster this year.

If you don't want your own page there, I'll absolutely respect that, but just to let you know, if you ever DO find that somebody's made one for you, you can set up a "track changes" notifier to keep an eye on it. I'm currently tracking all the Stargate pages, like a big dork. :)

[lynnenne]

The privacy policy does make me feel better, and the ability to track changes makes me feel a WHOLE lot better. It's great to be able to monitor whether anyone is trying to "out" you. (I hate that term, but there are professional repercussions for some of us. I really wish there weren't!)

What I'd love to do (for eg.) is create a Spike/Angel page where fans could find (and yep, edit) a list of archives, rec sites and influential stories without having to wade through (horrors) Google, especially now that many of the people who were writing the creme de la creme back in the day have dispersed and moved on to new shinies.

I think that'd be a great thing to have, and I think most fans would be okay with being linked. (Also: "the horrors of Google" made me LOL. :)

[stultiloquentia]

Cool. I really do believe in the OTW as a force of good. :) I'm pretty careful about my online identity, myself (though not as careful as some people need to be). Writing about other people, I'd err on the side of caution. Way, way over, scrunched against the side of caution.

One of the reasons Fanlore, and the whole OTW, came into being is that we, fandom, were already being misrepresented -- by silly, out-of-touch, anthropologist aca-but-not-(god forbid!)-fans, by the media, by That Other Crummy Wiki That We Shall Not Name. This is a way for us to make sure our lore, if it does get written down (and it will), gets written by us. I'm pretty passionate about that.

[elf]

Fanlore's big problem right now: people are afraid to add stuff, because they might do it wrong

Second this point. Third and fourth it, if I can.

Fans are nervous about editing/creating pages about archives, zines, pairings, shipwars, etc., because they know they're biased, and have incomplete info, and don't know what's proper for the site.

Fans who fall outside of media-fic fandom are generally utterly lost.

I'm a gamer. Tabletop RPGs. Have been for--eep--slightly more than thirty years. I have no idea where to start putting gamer "lore" on the site, nor any idea what's welcome. The line between "canon" and "fandom" is a lot different in gaming.

Got friends who are filkers. How much of the 50-odd year history of filk should go on the site? (Certainly, Off Centaur's rise & collapse should be there somewhere. I'm not qualified to write it. I'm not sure it's possible for anyone who knows the details to write it, without the entry turning into a wankfest.)

Is the Jedi religion a fan thing? The Klingon language? Otherkin?

Should "copyfight" have an entry?

I really, really love Fanlore. I just don't know what to do with it.

[kass]

I'm not a member of the wiki committee, so take this response with the proverbial grain of salt, but I tend to think we should err on the side of adding too much awesome stuff rather than too little. It's always possible to trim later if upon conversation it's decided that something doesn't belong there; I don't know much about the history of filk, or the Jedi religion, but I'd love to read those pages once people who do know them write them. :-)

[elf]

I know just enough about the history of filk to be thoroughly intimidated at the very idea of trying to write about it. Especially knowing that very few other fen involved in Fanlore are likely to notice & fix my mistakes. Makes me twitchy, it does.

I might try anyway, on the theory that flawed info is better than no info, and eventually the flaws would be noticed & fixed.

I don't know much about the Jedi religion, and I'm pretty sure the Fanlore page shouldn't say "some fanatic poseurs in the UK decided they loved Star Wars so much, they declared it to be their religion." (Which isn't quite how I think of it, but isn't far off, either.) (And don't get me started on Klingon Wicca.)

I think I'd like some kind of gathering, either in-person at a convention or an online chat group, with a goal of "let's add 50 new pages to Fanlore by pooling our info."

I'd be delighted to share what I know of the history of filk. I'm intimidated at the idea of a Fanlore page that's basically "Elf's take on the Off Centaur wankstorm." (Especially since I was nowhere near involved; I dated people who dated people who were involved.)

FWIW, drive by comment:

[francescacoppa]

It's actually not true re: filk; Mel Tatum was working on filk pages and linked fanlore in some filk communities, and there are other folk around, too.

You should totally add "Elf's take on some filk issue" and if you're worried, you should just say its your take and explicitly invite people to add more/different.

[stultiloquentia]

Fans are nervous about editing/creating pages about archives, zines, pairings, shipwars, etc., because they know they're biased, and have incomplete info, and don't know what's proper for the site.

Oh my god, I would love to see more about RPGs and filk on Fanlore. Wouldn't it be neat to be able to trace the connections between table-top and LARP and online RPGs, and find local LARPing resources, etc. One would, I imagine, have to be extra cautious with people's privacy, but a few starter links ought to be kosher.

As for your, "I have no idea where to start!" (with which I totally sympathize, and I've only been in fandom since 2002!), how about some basic lists of resources?

The line between "canon" and "fandom" is a lot different in gaming.
Talk about that! That's so interesting to me, the sliding scale of read-write culture, and how much responsibility for world-building and whatnot is in the hands of the fans across different media.

Is the Jedi religion a fan thing?
Well, it sure ain't a Mundane thing...

The Klingon language? Otherkin?
And Otherkin is a perfect example of something that needs to be at least defined on the site, because I have no idea what it is. *g*

Should "copyfight" have an entry?
Yes.

:D

[elf]

I am terrified of having an entry on Otherkin, because they might show up to correct it. (You think fandom wank gets bad? Imagine that level of bickering, plus a swarm of people who think they are half-angel-half-werejaguar, yegods I wish I were making up that example.)

If the Otherkin community just stuck to those who believed they were elves, dragons, vampires or fairies of various sorts (or mix-n-match blends thereof, don't ask), they definitely shouldn't have an entry. Since they are also prone to pulling their species claims from fandoms--Drow elves, star-vampires, Pernese dragons--and often call non-otherkin "muggles," there's at least some fandom connection.

Note where the Pagan Hierarchy Chart puts Otherkin. It's accurate. (The whole chart is frighteningly accurate.)

Otherkin are much more a Pagan fringe group than a fannish one. And I'm sure we'd all like to keep it that way. However, they exist, and they show up on the edges of fandom every now & then. They are more common in fandoms that have powerful, magical sentient creatures, especially gaming fandoms. I'm sure there are some WoW Otherkin, about which I very much do not wish to know the details.

[(Anonymous)]

As far as I've observed, the otherkin are actually quite civil in correcting false information about their subculture. :) They're also more prone to calling non-otherkin "mundanes" instead of "muggles" - that's a Harry Potter thing.

You are correct in that they're Pagan oriented rather than fan based. Most stick to themselves and their own when it comes to discussing otherkin, however some have been known to garner attention through (rather blatantly) intentional means.