committee post: Seeking a few good anime and manga fans!

[rbarenblat]

The Fanlore wiki committee has been brainstorming this year about outreach to different fan communities, especially fan communities which are unrepresented or under-represented on Fanlore. Anime, manga, and related communities are an area where we’d like to do some outreach.

Before we really dive in to trying to spread the word about Fanlore in various anime and manga communities, we want to make sure that we’ve created a good wiki structure in which fans can add pages. Here are the category pages for anime and manga as things stand now:

http://fanlore.org/wiki/Category:Anime
http://fanlore.org/wiki/Category:Manga

We probably need to reexamine how the above format categories are assigned to fandom pages. Do we want anime movies to be in the Film category? Anime/Manga may also need a separate Fandom by Source Community category (and what should we call it?). One issue we’ve become aware of is that the terms “anime” and “manga” may exclude similar material created in countries other than Japan (manhua in China, for example). We’re not sure what the right answers are. Here are a few ideas:

Option 1: Merge the Anime category with Cartoons and the Manga category with Comics.

Anime + Cartoons → Cartoons
Manga + Comics → Comics

Option 2: Create a new category, Animation, for the combined Anime and Cartoons categories. Merge the Manga category with Comics.

Anime + Cartoons → Animation
Manga + Comics → Comics

Option 3:
? something we haven’t even thought of yet!

We’re hoping for a system that will accommodate many needs, including those of manhua, manhwa, and a variety of animation and comics fandoms from around the world. If you have knowledge in these areas, we definitely want to hear from you! We hope to find a few fans who are excited about the prospect of chronicling and preserving anime or manga fandoms and their histories, who can help us 1) figure out how best to structure this corner of the wiki and 2) reach out to anime and manga communities for more participation once we have a good structure in place.

Might you be that person? Let us know by dropping a comment on this post, or contact us using our contact form. And please feel free to signal-boost this post on your own journal or in the fannish spaces you frequent. Thanks!

Edited to add: stay tuned -- a new post is coming from the Fanlore wiki committee which contains a new proposal for how to handle categories on the wiki, based in large part on response to this post. We've made a follow-up post, which is here: Category proposal.

Comments

[kylara]

>> Option 1: Merge the Anime category with Cartoons and the Manga category with Comics.
>> Option 2: Create a new category, Animation, for the combined Anime and Cartoons categories. Merge the Manga category with Comics.

No and no. This will only ostracize anime/manga fandom even further than it already is. Merging the categories erases the origins of anime and manga, and displays an ignorance or dismissiveness regarding feelings held within the anime/manga community. Anime and manga aren't just mediums; they're fandoms in their own right, even as they include fandoms for specific anime/manga series'. They should remain separate with their own categories.

(As a side, I recommend changing "cartoons" to "animation" anyway, since "cartoon" carries a connotation for being silly or childish, while animation doesn't so much. Cartoons can also be still images, just like a comic, so animation would be a clearer category name.)

>> Do we want anime movies to be in the Film category?

If it's had a theatrical release, I don't see why not.

>> Anime/Manga may also need a separate Fandom by Source Community category (and what should we call it?).

I don't follow what this means. Could you explain?

>> One issue we’ve become aware of is that the terms “anime” and “manga” may exclude similar material created in countries other than Japan (manhua in China, for example).

Yes. Yes it would. Perhaps it should, because it's an identity of its own. "Anime" and "manga" are specifically Japanese terms, are recognized as Japanese by their English-speaking fandoms (which is relevant as this is for the English-language wiki), and encompasses styles, tropes, and a history unique to the Japanese industry. While styles are definitely adapted and shared within the global animation and comics industry more often now, (e.g. Teen Titans, Batman Beyond, and Avatar: The Last Airbender all drew heavily on the anime style despite being American cartoons,) especially with its Asian neighbors, anime and manga are specifically Japanese.

The articles would be richer to note the influences (professional and fandom) and acknowledge the confusion of boundaries, as well as acknowledge material that might be commonly thought of as anime/manga despite not being from Japan. But "anime" and "manga" are Japanese. Don't erase that.

There was a similar "issue" (i.e. non-issue) in the Doujinshi article, if I remember correctly. Doujinshi is also specifically Japanese, but English-speaking fans will draw comics in doujinshi-style and refer to it as doujinshi, and a few "doujinshi" also come out of China in Chinese, creating a gray area of classification. And that's okay. But generally, doujinshi is Japanese, which is what the article is about, even while acknowledging the expanded definitions and uses. Just as anime and manga are Japanese, the articles can still acknowledge wider uses of the terms and material. As for the categories, if an English-speaking fan did a comic in doujinshi style and called it doujinshi, and I wrote a Fanlore article on it, I'd add the doujinshi category. For sources and fanworks not from Japan, let the fandoms decide if it should be tagged as "anime" and/or "manga" themselves. Or create new categories. But let them decide how to handle that.

The OTW's relationship to anime/manga fandom is shaky at best at the moment, and the suggestions in this post are not going to help that. If you want to show inclusion and respect, please don't mess with how we define ourselves.

[(Anonymous)]

You said this much better than I could have, thank you.

Fandoms by Source Community

[aethel]

To clarify, the "anime" and "manga" categories mentioned in the post are actually structured as format categories and NOT fandom categories, which is why we were pondering Anime/Manga as a separate Fandom by Source Community category--in other words, maybe it should have a fandom category instead of the current structure, where the intended use of the categories is unclear. Already under Fandom by Source Community we have SF fandom and Furry Fandom, and if we created a "media fandom" or "animanga fandom" category, that is where it would probably go. Or we could just move the current Anime and Manga categories there, where they make more sense.

The current parent category, Fandoms by Source Text, has a number of different format subcategories that basically list titles of source texts--Television, Books & Literature, Film, Comics, Cartoons, Anime, Manga, Games, Radio, Theater, Real People. These categories were instituted before we got fandom categories, and now we also have individual "fandom by source text" categories all listed together under the main category, not sorted by format or fannish tradition. So, rethinking how we were using the format categories seemed like a good idea.

Re: Fandoms by Source Community

[dancing_moon]

For Fandoms by Source Text, I think I'd suggest making "larger" top level categories.

I like the suggestion to put Animation as a category above Cartoons and Anime.

But I think it should go even further? Usually, one does not do top level searches that often (I compare how I use wikipedia and how the users moved on another wiki I helped out with), but instead goes directly to the word one does know. However, working backwards from a search term and then going parallell through categories is good - and thats where a smart category system is really useful for the user.

Print fandoms ->
  Books & Literature
  Sequential Art ->
    Comics (or Superhero Comics, depending on what the category actual contains)
    Bande dessinée
    Manhua
    Manga ->
       OEL Manga
       Manga
       Doujinshi / Fanproduced manga
etc etc.

[extempore]

are recognized as Japanese by their English-speaking fandoms (which is relevant as this is for the English-language wiki)

For me, this somehow hits the nail. Over the last weeks I started to dig around in the fanlore wiki and several times I met a "wall" when I wanted to add something or edit content. With "wall" I mean I had to stop, because I couldn't quite identify with what I read or I didn't quite know where to fit in certain content, which categories to use etc. I noticed this especially on the "anime" and "manga" pages when this topic emerged on the talk page (anime and manga outside of Japan).

I understand that fanlore wishes to be inclusive and to accept all corners of fandom. But to me the question is: from what point of view? It cannot be inclusive from a fan's PoV, I think, because everyone experiences fandom differently. But I also was told that yes, it should be from a fan's PoV, as it is them who will bring this wiki to life and diversity is a good thing and wouldn't it be good, if there were several different views of something on one page so people could get an impression of the different "colors" of fandoms? (I have a similar impression about AO3, btw.) But when I, as a fan, edit the page, I do it according to how I experience my fandom. And in my english language fandom Anime is not Avatar/Airbender, but soley stuff that comes from Japan. But there are enough other fans who see it differently. =) And when it comes to the part of actually categorizing the content - that is one tough nut to crack.

I don't know, how to solve this. Perhaps it's something that isn't even seen as problem other than by me: ;) I just can speak from my - so far short - experience with fanlore as someone who played around with a wiki for the first time and as someone from animanga and game fandom: I am still confused about categories (somehow I miss a clear overview or structure, like a "categories" page that shows me exactly what where is) and that adds to my confusion about how to properly sort things (the sitemap shows me some structure, but I can't quite... grasp it for my personal use, I guess ^^;). Before Frogspace told me about the Fandom by Source Category, I was rather confused about how to tag pictures I uploaded, for example.

As for the naming/sorting suggestions - I would go with the second. As I understand it, Animation and Comics would be the "roof categories" with Manwha, Manga, Anime, Cartoon etc. the various branches? I don't think there will be a perfect solution that makes everyone happy, but I also think that's not what should be the goal. The goal should be to offer a frame in which fans can operate adequately to tell their stories, a frame that is not too complex (or it becomes a barrier for newbies), easy to navigate and understood by most people. Animanga will be a challenge because of its "blob-ness", because it merges with other aspects and media, too, like video games or live acts. (And also because of the OTW's history with that part of fandom. But that's for another discussion.)

I'm just not sure, if fanlore can be or should be a place to discuss terminology with the goal to find a single, all including punch line. Hm.

[saekhwa]

I wish I had the ability to articulate myself like this. All I have is absolute agreement with this and what the anonymous commenter above said.