Podfic Entries

[paraka]

I've been trying to add more entries to Fanlore about podfic and have run into a bit of an issue. When I was creating new pages I was titling them "Title (podfic)" to help distinguish that this was an entry about the podfic not about the fic, which normally has the same title.

The problem though, is that this goes against current Fanlore policies to only add an honourific to an entry if there's a conflicting entry of the same name and there's a need to disambiguate. So the gardeners, rightly, were changing the names of the pages I created to remove the honourific.

And while I totally understand the reason for the policy, it still made me nervous because without the (podfic) in the title it just wasn't as clear that the entry was a podfic entry. Sure enough, one of the entries I made was later edited in a way to make it seem more like a fic entry (it's since been changed back and with other additions).

So I'd like to have a conversation about what we can do to make sure that podfic entries are welcomed on Fanlore and that future editors, trying to be helpful but not aware that the entry is a podfic entry, won't end up morphing the entries into fic entries. I've spoken to some individual podficcers about this as well as some of the Fanlore gardeners, and here's some of the suggestions we've come up with so far:

klb suggested that one way to deal with it is to include "podfic" in the title, but not as an honourific. So "Title podfic" would be how the pages are named. Most of the time, in fannish day-to-day conversations, people will often specify when they're talking about a podfic if the context of the situation doesn't already imply it. And when you look at places like AO3 or general fandom comms, many podficcers add that sort of distinction when they post their work. So adding "podfic" to the title does reflect podfic fandom today.

Sparcicle suggested that we add a note to the top of podfic pages saying "This page is about the podfic. For the story, see Title (story)."
This will give an immediate visual clue to those viewing the page that this is a page for the podfic and gives them a link to the fic page (or the opportunity to create a page for the fic if it doesn't already exist, as it won't in most cases).

There was some debate in the talk page where this was brought up that (story) is perhaps not the correct honourific and, while I'm throwing my 2 cents in, I'd like to say that I'd prefer to see the fic getting an honourific like (fanfic) instead, since the podfic is a story too (as are vids and comics and many other fanarts). In fact, what the fic and podfic share is the story, what we need to disambiguate is which medium the story is being told in.

aethel suggested adding a grey banner to the infobox to make it clearer that the template is a podfic template.

Personally, I think I like options 2 and 3 together best, but I thought I'd ask others how they feel before I start creating a bunch more pages. And please feel free to add more suggestions!

Comments

[paraka]

I'm trying to work up the energy to respond to people individually, but I've been trying all day and have mostly failed. /o\ So, for now at least, here's just me tacking on more thoughts.

It's not that I want to ban people forever from adding fic information to a podfic entry. But as klb pointed out, what I'm more worried about is people making non-meanful additions that change the entry from one about podfic to some sort of weird article that looks like a fic article on the surface but the body of which is about the podfic. Which is what happened in this case and given fandom's current bias for fic over podfic, is very likely to happen again.

I know my thoughts are biased, because I'm the one making a lot of podfic entries and the way I've approached making them. The rec information posted is for the podfic, making the entry seemingly about the fic causes confusion with the rest of the entry.

What I would like is to have a clear and easy way for people visiting the page to realize it's a podfic and make it so that people have to think and restructure if they want to add fic information to the page, rather than doing it willy nilly. That way we're less likely to get almost-vandalized pages and instead will get thoughtful and useful information added.

[klb]

Wouldn't the same be achieved by pre-creating a fic section on the page, and filling it with minimal information, like a sentence saying, "The fic that was read in this podfic is X, written by Y." ? That way if people do want to add info about the fic, there is a clear place to do it in. That seems like a lot less likely to lead to changes in the podfic section, because there will already be a clear place to put any info about the fic that the person wants to edit in. Then, if they have so much info about the fic that they don't want to just tack it on the podfic page, they can create their own separate page, at which point disambiguation kicks in and that works out fine. Y/n?

[morgandawn]

Klb is this what you are talking about in terms of creating a pre-filled fic section on the podfic page (note: example for discussion purposes only, not necessarily saying this is how it should be:
http://fanlore.org/wiki/User:MeeDee/SamplePreFilledPodficPage

[klb]

It's definitely an interesting sample for discussion. I'm very curious what everyone who has been involved in this discussion will think!

But yes, that's essentially what I was picturing.

(Also, I am super amused and charmed by the fake content of that fake podfic page. MUCH BETTER THAN CATS. :D)

ETA: I think the one difference from what I was imagining is that I'm not sure I'd have included a Fanfic: Reactions/Reviews section. In most cases where a page was created around a podfic, at least initially, the section for the fic itself would probably be very short, and wouldn't include reactions/reviews. If someone came along to add info to the fic section, then they might *add* fic reactions/reviews, but I don't think it would make sense to ask the podfic page creator to do this by default every time the template was used. (Though, of course, it could stay and people could just delete that part if desired...)

[morgandawn]

I too am torn about whether to include the Fanfic Reviews section. Do we want to (gently) push editors to create a new page just for a few lines about a fanfic? Or do we leave this section here and see what kind of info is collected and then decide if the fanfic needs its own stand alone page (we've had to do that with reviews for zine stories where the reviews for a single story grew so voluminous they overshadowed the zine, so we created a page just for the one story).

The other idea would be to add below the line about the fanfic: "To add commentary about the fanfic, please create a seperate page." But that's a bit...pushy?

I think I still favor the subtler suggestion of: "This page is about the podfic. For the story, see This Never Happened (story)" at the top like here: http://fanlore.org/wiki/This_Never_Happened

or perhaps we let the people making the podfic entries choose which one works better for them.

[klb]

Do you think it would push editors to a new page, rather than to just expand on their own the fic section already provided on that page?

[morgandawn]

To keep track, I am going to call the sample I just created the Prefilled Podfic Example (or Model 2). The one created with the disambiguation line at the top (like here: http://fanlore.org/wiki/This_Never_Happened) would be the Guidepost Podfic Example (or Model 1.) I think we all agree that doing a grey highlight on all templates would be a good idea overall. Have I left out any other examples discussed to date? I have to admit I am losing track and am having problems following what we're debating without concrete examples in front of us.

[morgandawn]

We talking about Model 2? Yes, I think adding a pre-filled "reviews/reactions" section would encourage people to add fic commentary to the podfic page. Leaving it off (and only offering the one line with the red link to the yet to be created fanfic page) might push them to create said fanfic page - or they might just start typing below the FanFic line anyway no matter what subsections we do - or do not include there.

Personally, I think it would help if we had several examples we could test to see how they eventually play out. And I'd leave it up to the person creating the podfic page to decide which to use. That may be an obvious statement, but I felt it needs to be said,

[klb]

I like the idea of having several templates and having the person who creates the page choose. Model 1, Model 2, or modified Model 2 (2a, 2b, etc), which would probably vary mostly in terms of how much information the fic section invited.

Of course, I'm not a super relevant participant in all of this, not being a Gardener or having ever made a podfic page on fanlore—just an interested party in the discussion! So I'm not sure how much it means for me to like the idea. But I do. :)