committee post: Seeking a few good anime and manga fans!

[rbarenblat]

The Fanlore wiki committee has been brainstorming this year about outreach to different fan communities, especially fan communities which are unrepresented or under-represented on Fanlore. Anime, manga, and related communities are an area where we’d like to do some outreach.

Before we really dive in to trying to spread the word about Fanlore in various anime and manga communities, we want to make sure that we’ve created a good wiki structure in which fans can add pages. Here are the category pages for anime and manga as things stand now:

http://fanlore.org/wiki/Category:Anime
http://fanlore.org/wiki/Category:Manga

We probably need to reexamine how the above format categories are assigned to fandom pages. Do we want anime movies to be in the Film category? Anime/Manga may also need a separate Fandom by Source Community category (and what should we call it?). One issue we’ve become aware of is that the terms “anime” and “manga” may exclude similar material created in countries other than Japan (manhua in China, for example). We’re not sure what the right answers are. Here are a few ideas:

Option 1: Merge the Anime category with Cartoons and the Manga category with Comics.

Anime + Cartoons → Cartoons
Manga + Comics → Comics

Option 2: Create a new category, Animation, for the combined Anime and Cartoons categories. Merge the Manga category with Comics.

Anime + Cartoons → Animation
Manga + Comics → Comics

Option 3:
? something we haven’t even thought of yet!

We’re hoping for a system that will accommodate many needs, including those of manhua, manhwa, and a variety of animation and comics fandoms from around the world. If you have knowledge in these areas, we definitely want to hear from you! We hope to find a few fans who are excited about the prospect of chronicling and preserving anime or manga fandoms and their histories, who can help us 1) figure out how best to structure this corner of the wiki and 2) reach out to anime and manga communities for more participation once we have a good structure in place.

Might you be that person? Let us know by dropping a comment on this post, or contact us using our contact form. And please feel free to signal-boost this post on your own journal or in the fannish spaces you frequent. Thanks!

Edited to add: stay tuned -- a new post is coming from the Fanlore wiki committee which contains a new proposal for how to handle categories on the wiki, based in large part on response to this post. We've made a follow-up post, which is here: Category proposal.

Comments

[alessandriana]

Mmm, of the two, option 2 sounds better to me (some anime fans get bristly at having anime get called 'cartoons'); that said, it feels very weird to me to lump anime and manga in with animation/comics. This is mostly an instinctual 'but we've always separated them!' reaction, but I suspect it's one a lot of people will have. Is there no way to just do a Category:Manwha or Category:Manhua?

[salinea]

Manga + Comics → Comics
Why not go Manga + Comics + Bande Dessinée + Manhua + Manhwa + Historietas + All the others -> Sequential Art? If you restructure by media, that's what makes the most sense at being inclusive.

[zebra_in_dream]

OTW is the first time I heard of sequential art and so far I haven't seen a definition of what sequential art actually is. It's utterly non-descriptive and unknown to me.

Just going by the words: art arranged in a sequence, I'd put everything in which changes with time or space (theater, movie, tv shows, cartoons, comics, manga, etc).

[(Anonymous)]

I'll be blunt here - if Fanlore goes with Option 1 or 2, all they'll do is alienate the animanga community even more than it is now. And considering this post opened with the desire to reach out to the animanga community, I'm not sure that's the direction you want to go in.


Problem Number One: You can't try to be inclusive of other fans by forcing them redefine how they identify themselves - particularly in a project that's meant to record fannish history.

Problem Number Two: The boundaries between media in animanga fandom are really, really blurry. The proposed solutions to make things simpler are going to turn insanely complicated once you get down to details. There's a reason the animanga community and it's sister communities have a history of looking like overlapping blobs.

Problem Number Three: This proposal already failed once. The same exact debate already happened on the tag wrangler mailing list and it did not go well. At all. A lot of western media wranglers were surprised and confused when the animanga wranglers had serious problems with the umbrella categories of comics/cartoons/sequential art. And those were animanga fans who were already open to the idea of introducing the AO3/OTW to the animanga community. I know this is a different project, but the basic argument is still the same.

Problem Number Four: I'm an animanga fan, but I still don't see the comics fandoms or western animation fandoms taking too kindly to these new divisions either, and yet I notice they were never mentioned in this post. Possibly some thought should be put into their side of the issue as well?

Problem Number Five: The way Fanlore is approaching this problem is going to get you one of two reactions from the majority of animanga fandom - a) they'll get pissed or b) they'll stay completely indifferent to Fanlore, not even bothering to engage with it.


I don't know what to do about manhua or other nation-based fandoms. They're not my area. But animanga is my area and I can tell you that the only thing the proposed solutions will do is keep the animanga fandom presence on Fanlore at a bare minimum. Personally, I think there should be categories for how fans define their own fandoms, not how Fanlore or other fans believe they should be defined.

[kylara]

Yes, this.

I wish you were not anonymous, anon, so then I could friend you.

[rbarenblat]

Thank you for this comment -- we really appreciate it. I'm co-chair of the OTW wiki committee and I'm also on the OTW board, and I want you to know that we're listening.

The reason we made this post is that we know that we need the input of people who are involved with animanga fandoms to help us figure out how to structure this part of the wiki, and we'd like to get that sorted out before we begin the project of greater outreach to animanga fans.

I hear you saying that the way we're approaching this is going to make animanga fans angry. Can you suggest a better way to approach this? (I'm really asking; that's not a rhetorical question.) We thought it made sense to try to figure out the best structure for this section of the wiki, create the structure, and then work on inviting people to come and create pages to document the fannish things they love. But if you think we're going about it wrong, please tell us how we can do better.

[(Anonymous)]

I`m interested

[kylara]

>> Option 1: Merge the Anime category with Cartoons and the Manga category with Comics.
>> Option 2: Create a new category, Animation, for the combined Anime and Cartoons categories. Merge the Manga category with Comics.

No and no. This will only ostracize anime/manga fandom even further than it already is. Merging the categories erases the origins of anime and manga, and displays an ignorance or dismissiveness regarding feelings held within the anime/manga community. Anime and manga aren't just mediums; they're fandoms in their own right, even as they include fandoms for specific anime/manga series'. They should remain separate with their own categories.

(As a side, I recommend changing "cartoons" to "animation" anyway, since "cartoon" carries a connotation for being silly or childish, while animation doesn't so much. Cartoons can also be still images, just like a comic, so animation would be a clearer category name.)

>> Do we want anime movies to be in the Film category?

If it's had a theatrical release, I don't see why not.

>> Anime/Manga may also need a separate Fandom by Source Community category (and what should we call it?).

I don't follow what this means. Could you explain?

>> One issue we’ve become aware of is that the terms “anime” and “manga” may exclude similar material created in countries other than Japan (manhua in China, for example).

Yes. Yes it would. Perhaps it should, because it's an identity of its own. "Anime" and "manga" are specifically Japanese terms, are recognized as Japanese by their English-speaking fandoms (which is relevant as this is for the English-language wiki), and encompasses styles, tropes, and a history unique to the Japanese industry. While styles are definitely adapted and shared within the global animation and comics industry more often now, (e.g. Teen Titans, Batman Beyond, and Avatar: The Last Airbender all drew heavily on the anime style despite being American cartoons,) especially with its Asian neighbors, anime and manga are specifically Japanese.

The articles would be richer to note the influences (professional and fandom) and acknowledge the confusion of boundaries, as well as acknowledge material that might be commonly thought of as anime/manga despite not being from Japan. But "anime" and "manga" are Japanese. Don't erase that.

There was a similar "issue" (i.e. non-issue) in the Doujinshi article, if I remember correctly. Doujinshi is also specifically Japanese, but English-speaking fans will draw comics in doujinshi-style and refer to it as doujinshi, and a few "doujinshi" also come out of China in Chinese, creating a gray area of classification. And that's okay. But generally, doujinshi is Japanese, which is what the article is about, even while acknowledging the expanded definitions and uses. Just as anime and manga are Japanese, the articles can still acknowledge wider uses of the terms and material. As for the categories, if an English-speaking fan did a comic in doujinshi style and called it doujinshi, and I wrote a Fanlore article on it, I'd add the doujinshi category. For sources and fanworks not from Japan, let the fandoms decide if it should be tagged as "anime" and/or "manga" themselves. Or create new categories. But let them decide how to handle that.

The OTW's relationship to anime/manga fandom is shaky at best at the moment, and the suggestions in this post are not going to help that. If you want to show inclusion and respect, please don't mess with how we define ourselves.

[(Anonymous)]

You said this much better than I could have, thank you.

Fandoms by Source Community

[aethel]

To clarify, the "anime" and "manga" categories mentioned in the post are actually structured as format categories and NOT fandom categories, which is why we were pondering Anime/Manga as a separate Fandom by Source Community category--in other words, maybe it should have a fandom category instead of the current structure, where the intended use of the categories is unclear. Already under Fandom by Source Community we have SF fandom and Furry Fandom, and if we created a "media fandom" or "animanga fandom" category, that is where it would probably go. Or we could just move the current Anime and Manga categories there, where they make more sense.

The current parent category, Fandoms by Source Text, has a number of different format subcategories that basically list titles of source texts--Television, Books & Literature, Film, Comics, Cartoons, Anime, Manga, Games, Radio, Theater, Real People. These categories were instituted before we got fandom categories, and now we also have individual "fandom by source text" categories all listed together under the main category, not sorted by format or fannish tradition. So, rethinking how we were using the format categories seemed like a good idea.

[extempore]

are recognized as Japanese by their English-speaking fandoms (which is relevant as this is for the English-language wiki)

For me, this somehow hits the nail. Over the last weeks I started to dig around in the fanlore wiki and several times I met a "wall" when I wanted to add something or edit content. With "wall" I mean I had to stop, because I couldn't quite identify with what I read or I didn't quite know where to fit in certain content, which categories to use etc. I noticed this especially on the "anime" and "manga" pages when this topic emerged on the talk page (anime and manga outside of Japan).

I understand that fanlore wishes to be inclusive and to accept all corners of fandom. But to me the question is: from what point of view? It cannot be inclusive from a fan's PoV, I think, because everyone experiences fandom differently. But I also was told that yes, it should be from a fan's PoV, as it is them who will bring this wiki to life and diversity is a good thing and wouldn't it be good, if there were several different views of something on one page so people could get an impression of the different "colors" of fandoms? (I have a similar impression about AO3, btw.) But when I, as a fan, edit the page, I do it according to how I experience my fandom. And in my english language fandom Anime is not Avatar/Airbender, but soley stuff that comes from Japan. But there are enough other fans who see it differently. =) And when it comes to the part of actually categorizing the content - that is one tough nut to crack.

I don't know, how to solve this. Perhaps it's something that isn't even seen as problem other than by me: ;) I just can speak from my - so far short - experience with fanlore as someone who played around with a wiki for the first time and as someone from animanga and game fandom: I am still confused about categories (somehow I miss a clear overview or structure, like a "categories" page that shows me exactly what where is) and that adds to my confusion about how to properly sort things (the sitemap shows me some structure, but I can't quite... grasp it for my personal use, I guess ^^;). Before Frogspace told me about the Fandom by Source Category, I was rather confused about how to tag pictures I uploaded, for example.

As for the naming/sorting suggestions - I would go with the second. As I understand it, Animation and Comics would be the "roof categories" with Manwha, Manga, Anime, Cartoon etc. the various branches? I don't think there will be a perfect solution that makes everyone happy, but I also think that's not what should be the goal. The goal should be to offer a frame in which fans can operate adequately to tell their stories, a frame that is not too complex (or it becomes a barrier for newbies), easy to navigate and understood by most people. Animanga will be a challenge because of its "blob-ness", because it merges with other aspects and media, too, like video games or live acts. (And also because of the OTW's history with that part of fandom. But that's for another discussion.)

I'm just not sure, if fanlore can be or should be a place to discuss terminology with the goal to find a single, all including punch line. Hm.

[saekhwa]

I wish I had the ability to articulate myself like this. All I have is absolute agreement with this and what the anonymous commenter above said.

[facetofcathy]

I have no opinion on the answer to the actual question of categorization--it's not my place to say as I'm not in any of these fandoms.

But, before even broaching the topic, an explanation of what the various types of categories are, how they function and how they might be used (or completely ignored) by readers of Fanlore is surely in order.

Category structure on Fanlore has changed dramatically since it was first introduced, so to a user familiar with wiki structure circa 2009 who hasn't kept up with the changes, their (mis)understanding of how the wiki works would actively prevent them from even knowing what you're asking.

I've kept up with the changes, and I'm a bit confused as to how this category change would effect pages and facilitate page creation. Someone who is not very, or at all, familiar with the way Fanlore structures itself now is going to imagine a definition and use for category that might be miles away from reality. People are already doing that very thing in comments here, and at a bare minimum making the links to Category pages clickable might get people who have never paid attention to Category debates to go look at the pages as they are now.

The Fandom by Source Community question is likely to be meaningless to anyone but an experienced Fanlore editor who is savvy about how templates work. I wonder if approaching that question by pointing to the various infobox templates, which are the things an editor making a new page actually uses and also the things that affect page content, and then seeing how the categories fall out around needed templates might work better. Or to put it more simply, is a mashup infobox and a couple of single source infoboxes needed with specific content for East Asian sourced fandoms or do the existing ones work? A question I'm not qualified to answer, however.

[extempore]

But, before even broaching the topic, an explanation of what the various types of categories are, how they function and how they might be used (or completely ignored) by readers of Fanlore is surely in order.

Oh please yes! What confused me a great deal was that fandom by source text categories seem to be on the same level as "individual fandoms", at least according to the sitemap. It would make more sense to me, if individual fandoms would fall into the various categories like RPF, Manga, Radio etc. I don't know how these things work, but to make it easier, perhaps fandom categories could be connected to their respective "parent folders"? (For more, see below.)

You are right, a lot of the categories didn't make any sense to me - or rather, their hierarchy and placement didn't. It would be great, if they could be made more "understandable" for people who have never before worked on a wiki, for fans who just want to write something about their fandom and not waste time digging through pages of explanations for each strangely named category. ;)

When I started, I was presented with an empty window and the suggestion to "just start typing in the box below". The "see for help" link offered more links to a FAQ. So I went to the "start a new page" site and was confronted with a four-step list - and two of the steps had me stop. A name for a page and the need to format it, sure, that's familiar. But what template to use for what page? And what category? Without additional digging around (and sometimes not even then) there's no way to know that as a newbie. I would have loved to have the three or four most common pages readily linked to make it easy for beginners. For example, the page templates for a source fandom (i.e. the series, book, movie), one for communities, for stories, perhaps for pairings or characters or debates/controversies in fandoms, too. (Of course, that's a highly personal impression on what "most common pages" could be.)

Or perhaps there could be a fool-proof way for peeps like me, something to klick through: say, I want to create a new page for an anime, then I'd follow a prominently placed link called "create new page", from there I could choose which "parent" category, which would be "Fan communities", then "fandom by source text", then I'd click on Anime and would be presented with an empty page where the correct templates and categories are already inserted. Perhaps with a note on how to add the new fandom category or an additional step where I could insert the fandom category (either click on a link to an already existing one or write a new one) and it would be placed in the page as well.

I have no idea, if that would even be doable and I'm sure it's way too much hassle for experienced Wikiwriters. But not all of us are and there will be people who have no idea how the Wiki community works. I pestered Lian and Frogspace, otherwise I'm pretty sure I would have turned away again and not be bothered with adding my share to Fanlore.

And boy, will I ever be able to just write one-sentence replies? -_-;;

tl;dr: A bit easier access for n00bs would be greatly appreciated! =D

[aethel]

But, before even broaching the topic, an explanation of what the various types of categories are, how they function and how they might be used (or completely ignored) by readers of Fanlore is surely in order.

Yeah, I'm starting to notice that. /o\

One of my concerns is that it wasn't clear 1) how the Anime category is used and 2) how the Anime category *should* be used. I think everyone wants to use it as a fandom category? "Anime", which is a fandom, isn't analogous to "Television" or "Film", which are not (as far as I know), but it sits next to them under Fandoms by Source Text, which I grant is possibly an awkward category name.

Should we remove format categories like television, film, and radio altogether? then we could list all "individual" fandom pages and categories -- Harry Potter, Naruto, Lotrips, etc. -- under Fandoms by Source Text and have superfandom/fan tradition categories -- Comics, Anime, Manga, Manhua, Media Fandom, RPF, etc. -- under Fandom by Source Community. And then add subcategories as needed and do a lot of cross-categorizing so everyone can find what they're looking for.

[troisroyaumes]

Speaking as a fan of animanga as well as manhwa and manhua, I think the best way to include manhwa and manhua is to allow them to be media categories in their own right, rather than leave them as stubs or try to lump them together with manga. This way, if pages for manhwa and manhua fandoms get created on Fanlore, they can be correctly categorized instead of being erroneously assigned to Manga.

The discussion on the tag-wrangling list concerned the fact that manhwa and manhua fandoms were being grouped into Anime and Manga on AO3, even though anime and manga in English-language fandom indicate Japanese sources. The problem is not the exclusion of manhwa and manhua from the anime or manga categories--since anime and manga never encompassed manhwa and manhua to begin with--but the fallacy that manhwa and manhua are somehow subsets of anime and manga when they possess their own styles and separate histories. (The total failure of the stub for manhwa to acknowledge this fact, as well as the misleading information provided--a substantial number of manhwa series are not serialized in magazines at all--are also symptoms of this problem.) Whatever solution you do choose, I think it is important to start off by understanding exactly what are the objections being brought to the table by manhwa and manhua fans.

[(Anonymous)]

Seconded, thirded, +1000.

[anenko]

Ouch. The manhwa article on Fanlore really was painful. I poked at the article a bit--mostly using your post on manhwa and representation as a resource. Would you like to double-check to make sure that I didn't misrepresent what you wrote, or add anything horribly offensive on my own?

[branchandroot]

Hosting a small discussion on this here.

Consensus so far: No, do not merge them like that, that would be Bad.

Solutions suggested so far: A category for everything and everything in its category.

Addendum, upon understanding what you're actually talking about: Do not, not, not, use extremely culturally specific terms as generic format terms. Format terms should be as neutral and descriptive as possible (though, judging by some discussion above, this will be a bit difficult too); Animation and Graphic Stories perhaps? (Graphic Novel is more familiar to some parts of the fanbase but really doesn't describe the long-running serials very well). And, seriously, do not use an imperialistic culture's word for graphic stories as some bizarre kind of coverture to encompass the graphic stories of cultures they have been imperialistic toward. Just... bad, yes? This applies both to using comics to cover manga and using manga to cover manhwa.

Conclusion so far: Format terms = as un-loaded and descriptive as possible, understanding this will be difficult. Anime and comics and manhwa and and historietas all = source type terms not format terms. It will always be a bit messy; this is life.

[rbarenblat]

Thank you for hosting a discussion on this (and for sharing the link here -- I'm going to track comments on your post so I can see how people respond.)

You raise a good point about the desirability of neutral descriptive terms (and yes, I think you're right that this can be difficult; we all have strong feelings about the things we love, that's what makes us fans, right?) And I appreciate the reminders, from you and from others in this thread, about the ways in which the terms we use can reinscribe imperialism in ways we didn't intend.

I'm really glad this conversation is happening.

[franzeska]

It kind of feels like we're imposing archive-style hierarchical structure on a wiki for no good reason. Why not just make as many comics categories as there are nuclei of comics fandoms?

[franzeska]

And, wow, I don't think I'm the target audience of this post at all, but I have to say that some of the commentary I'm seeing on what 'comics' means is amazingly English- and US-centric. 'Comics' isn't everyone's word, but it's a pretty common cognate/loan word in a hell of a lot of languages (including Japanese). Sequential Art isn't widely used by any manga or Western comics fanfic writers I know, but it's plenty well known in some fandom corners.

radical!

[aethel]

That sounds like a good plan. Where will we put these categories?

In terms of not imposing archive category hierarchy, would you be in favor of getting rid of the format subcategories under Fandoms by Source Text? The ones that aren't fandom names:

Fandoms by Source Text

* Books & Literature
* Film
* Radio
* Television
* Theater


And then create more fandom categories either here or under Fandoms by Source Community? Comics, Manhua, Gaming/Games, ...

[frogspace.livejournal.com]

Option 3: ? something we haven’t even thought of yet!

Don't merge anything and create as many categories as needed.

What's needed, you probably won't find out until people start adding pages. So what you need most are people who *know* this wiki (train your volunteers who don't know what to do to help the OTW or send them to the regular editors so that they can show them the ropes) who can then jump in to help other newbie editors when they need help, someone to chat, or something the wiki doesn't currently offer.

(Also, a wiki forum would be a good idea because it builds community and newbies need a better way to ask questions or find the discussions that already took place.)

[extempore]

Also, a wiki forum

This could be a tremendous addition. A meeting point for everyone, a place where newbies can ask stuff, where people get to know each other, where more general discussions can take place and where community is buildt. For people who don't follow the "recent changes" page slavishly, it could also point their attention to topics, problems or simply new stuff.