fun with subpages!

[aethel]

I've been flailing around Fanlore for some time now, trying to figure out what should be a subpage and what shouldn't, and I thought I'd collect some flailings here instead of continuing to pester people on the wiki:


1. First, some types of info we are currently using subpages for (correct me if I'm wrong): character pages, pairing pages, fanzine lists, fandom glossaries, subfandoms, and sometimes fandom-specific concepts or events. Also, because fandom doesn't fit neatly into boxes, there are plenty of special cases where I thought the use of subpages was inspired: see Vividcon, Fanlore Live.

2. Subpages are useful for keeping track of related material in the absence of fandom-specific category tags.

3. Subpages are especially useful for complicated fandoms. They are also a great place to store long lists.

4. However, finding a particular subpage may become difficult if there are a whole lot for one fandom. I imagine this will be the case for some comics fandoms and Harry Potter. On the other hand, we don't have any examples yet (?), so maybe I'm just borrowing trouble.

4a. Recently (and a while ago) there have been a few discussions on where to put fandom-specific glossary terms--vocabulary subpages could make the subpage list explode, but if we put them in top-level pages, they could get lost. I personally am in favor of keeping all glossary terms as top-level pages, but I've also encountered topics that seemed broad enough and central enough to the fandom to fit as a subpage as well. (See Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Soul, Star Trek/Vulcan. On the other hand, we have Pon Farr.) Hm, but does that mean they shouldn't be in the glossary category?? The "Fandom Glossary" subpage idea seems like a good solution (see The Sentinel/Fandom Glossary)--links to top-level pages can be collected in one place along with short definitions that may not merit a separate page. However, because it's been discussed on a few isolated talk pages with few participants, I'm worried that it's not "official."

4b. I scanned the Glossary category yesterday; most terms look to have pan-fandom appeal, but there were also pages like EWE, Fine Kirkpatrick Ass, Muldertorture, Mensaverse, Malfoycest.

5. The wiki seems to be gravitating more toward putting fandom-related stuff in subpages than it did in the beginning. This means that there are some older top-level pages and newer subpages that are covering the same type of info. Example: Ancients (Stargate) vs. Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Soul. But of course these particular fandom-specific concepts are special cases, since their fandoms include more than one show (and more than one top-level page). Both organization schemes have merit, imho: "Ancients" looks pretty, but "Soul" is easy to find. Whatever the decision, can we have a rule written up and placed somewhere obvious?

6. I personally find subpages to be unattractive. This bias affects how I approach the naming of new pages, so hard-and-fast rules (whatever they may be) would help me a lot.

In conclusion: I just now found the Help:Subpages. I think it's time to update it! I'd like to see a list that clearly states what we're sure we're using subpages for, what we're sure we're NOT using subpages for, and what we're just not sure about yet. What say you?

Comments

[ratcreature]

I dislike subpages for glossary terms, even fandom specific ones a lot. Lists of fandom terms that then link to top level pages would be different.

Also, I didn't know about that subpage help. I had no idea about the Doctor Who example, and it seems that the people who made the BSG pages, where 2003 and 1978 are both top level pages, didn't either... (seriously, the help pages are impossibly scattered.I wish there was just a manual I could read, something with a single TOC and an index where all the policies and instructions were bundled)

[aethel]

The Doctor Who example is also out of date, since the editors there decided to split the fandom into offline and online, instead of classic and new. I don't know enough about how BSG fandom landscape looks to go over there and tell them they're Doin It Rong.

for some reason, I only just noticed the Help link on the sidebar that does indeed send you to a table of contents on help pages....

[arduinna]

I'm partial to the Fandom Glossary subpage idea not just for tidiness, but because for a newbie to a fandom, having a list of fandom-specific terms to refer to can be incredibly useful - far more so than having to know what terms to type into a search box.

I'd really like to see the top-level but fandom-specific glossary terms get moved into something like a Fandom Glossary page for that reason; someone who doesn't know XF or Popslash isn't necessarily going to know to type in "Muldertorture" or "Fine Kirkpatrick Ass" when they're trying to read up on the fandom, and there's no guarantee that those terms will be linked on the fandom's main page.

I have the feeling that I'm helping to push things more toward subpages in general, only because I really like things to be organized and connected, and with categories being only broad and general, I start to get twitchy. *g* I want people to have one place where they can go to find out about whatever it is they're interested in.

If the category system winds up changing or expanding, it might free things up a bit.

[aethel]

I see what you mean about searching, but I feel like we can have it both ways. Someone who wants to check out a fandom can look at the glossary page to see a linked list of relevant terms, and someone who uses Fanlore to check out a term they don't understand can search it and be taken to a page specifically about that term.

I've been trying to work out where my antipathy for subpages on individual glossary terms is coming from: subpages create a hierarchy of ownership, but words want to be free! I think in this age of multifannishness and fannish osmosis, it's inaccurate to represent terms as only belonging to one fandom. Especially terms like pon farr that everyone(?) knows, but are still tied to a particular fandom. See also: David Hewlett, How Are You So Awesome?

I'm leaning toward fandom categories myself--then we wouldn't have to agonize over where to put things. Or at least I'd stop agonizing.

[penknife.livejournal.com]

I'm strongly in favor of either using subpages for fandom-specific glossary terms or moving them to a Fandom Glossary page for each fandom (or at least linking them from there!) I think the current system is hugely confusing, and I like the idea of having all the information about a specific fandom appear as subpages for that fandom -- a lot of these aren't broad fandom-wide terms, they're things that would appear on the main fandom page (or on a character or pairing page) if there were room to talk about them there, but there aren't, so it seems reasonable to me to put them on a subpage. But if we're not going to do that, then none of the fandom-specific glossary terms should be subpages -- right now it's not consistent either way.

[ratcreature]

You can't find anything in the cluttered subpage lists. They are not good if there are many terms. To make it readable you need a manual list anyway, so there is no sense to bother make these all subpages, only to need a ton of top level redirects on top of this. A single glossary page would be good for each fandom, but not having 50+ terms in a subpage clutter cloud in an info box, which can be easily reached if you have a subpage for every pairing, every character and then one for each fandom-specific term.

[elf]

I like the idea of fandom-specific glossary pages as supbages, and possibly a single subpage per fandom w/glossary terms. (Harry Potter/Harry Potter Glossary)

I expect some fandom-specific terms would need their own page; I've been considering trying to throw together an "identity porn" page for DC comics. But plenty of fandoms have their own terms that could all be put on one big page--pairing mashup terms, genres/tropes specific to the fandom, canon nicknames, canon terms that are commonly used in fanworks, etc.

I think there's a problem with slash pairings being subpages, but I can't think how to fix it.

Searching for "Harry/Snape" gets a result of "there is no page titled Harry/Snape"... but the subpage Harry Potter/Harry/Snape exists. Hm. I think searching for a term should turn up subpages titled with that term, especially if the idea is to avoid more top-level pages.

[aethel]

Hm, I just searched "Harry/Snape" and got redirected to the page. But sometimes the search function is weird about capitalization.

So, do you think that the terms that need their own page should be subpages or top-level pages? Or both? :)

[elf]

I forgot about capitalization. :/

I think terms that need their own pages should generally be subpages if they're very fandom-specific; top-level if they cross over several fandoms. (There is no page for Rarepair. My brain hurts.)

Trying to think of fandom-specific terms that might need a whole page. You listed some, like EWE and LoTRiPS. Min-maxing, munchkin, and gamist-storyteller-roleplayer (probably lumped together under the name of the essay that I can't remember), for gamers; filkroom, pick pass or play, and house filk for filkers; various language pages for the fandoms that have them--Klingon and Tolkein's elvish languages are the most well-known.

[nigeltde]

I'm a newcomer (hi all!) and definitely need more lurkmoar nous but it doesn't seem to me to make sense to have glossary terms divorced from each other in a hierarchical set-up considering the rapidity of language change in fandom. For instance, if someone had made a GQMF page a mere six months ago it should arguably have gone under Star Trek(?) but it's already detached from that fandom in the places I hang out. I like the idea of subpage lists like the the Professionals Glossary but any term that in the eyes of the writer warrants a page to itself I would suggest should be top-level.

[aethel]

*waves hello* Speaking of GQMF, we should get on that...

[aethel]

Yeah, you're right about Star Trek. I'm trying to think of what fandom I saw where the subpage organization worked...

Agreed on the fandom categories! How do we request that?

Redirects never hurt anyone, so I say the more the merrier. However, I don't think subpage redirects actually show up in the list of subpages?

Speaking of Clark Kent, if we go with fewer fandom subpages, then having the top-level character overview page for characters that appear in multiple fandoms would be very useful. Spock(s) can be explained properly!

[nigeltde]

I've been thinking about Clark. If that top-level page expanded with more information, it would need to provide links to at least three different Clark Kent subpages, at least three Lex Luthor subpages, three Lois subpages, etc etc. Even if those characters had top level pages, they would need sub-pages. What I'm trying to say is the replication of information is staggering and and it's just way too much clutter structurally and on the page for my tastes.

[nigeltde]

I have to say I agree; while I think subpages can be useful for some things I feel they kind of belie the point of categories altogether. The whole point about wikis is that you don't need hierarchical organisation.

I guess what I really want to say is that we need fandom categories and a lot of the subpages need to become top-level pages.
Would we even need specific fandom categories if we followed the portal/big-box-o-links at the bottom model? I think wikipedia employs it really intuitively.

[quinara]

ZOMG, thank you for bringing this up... The structural issues of Fanlore are what have made me back away from the project, because it's hard to want to create page when you feel like it's going to have to be moved at some point.

I'm mostly repeating what we've talked about before, but I think fandom categories would be really, really useful - otherwise I think subpages (since they have the potential to become in their hundreds and take over the main page with an unorganised list) should be broad topics/lists that there isn't room for on the main page. Fandom Glossary is a perfect one, though I'd also advocate Pairings/Relationships and even Characters. The main ones would probably come up in the text of the main page, but making every possible pairing (and friendship? There's a big difference in the way fandom treats slashes and hyphens and using redirects consistently, perhaps, to the slash would be counter-intuitive in relationships that are dealt with gen-ly far more often).

So, yeah, as few subpages as possible, I say! Because they're ugly. But, really, I'd go for any consensus that was clean and consistent.

[aethel]

The structural issues of Fanlore are what have made me back away from the project, because it's hard to want to create page when you feel like it's going to have to be moved at some point.

Thanks for pointing this out! It may be a common disincentive. I guess it hasn't stopped me from editing, but I know I don't create pages as often as I did when I started. We may need to advertise when we resolve this: "FANLORE: We Know What We're Doing Now."

[quinara]

I suppose the question is how do we resolve it? Who's in charge?? *peers around*

[aethel]

Well, there's the Wiki committee: http://fanlore.org/wiki/Fanlore:Wiki_Committee

[quinara]

Ah, cool beans...

[aethel]

I went ahead and emailed the wiki committee about fandom categories (since that seemed like a preferred alternative to subpages) and pointed them to this post. Though you may wish to contact them separately if you have different questions/suggestions.

[quinara]

Well, I don't want to step on anybody's toes with my personal tastes, so I'll probably wait and see for a bit. I hope they comment on the post though!

[ratcreature]

I want fandom categories so much...

[melina]

Just so everyone knows, the wiki committee is talking about this. We aren't going to rush to a decision -- these are complicated structural issues that are going to require a lot of work to implement, and we don't want to rush into something that will only have to be reversed later. We do appreciate hearing the variety of opinions.